cg74
Well-known member
I think it needs saying; I've found that carp feeding predominantly over gravel have significantly tougher mouths than those that mainly feed over silt.
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Carp with no lips!
- Thread starter lightdragoon
- Start date
noknot
Well-known member
Well what an interesting thread and some of the theories are quite comical!
I've been a Carp Angler for over 30 years now, and can honestly say I have never damaged a Carp, if I ever did I would hang the rods up!
I have fished weedy waters, gravel pits, clay pits, small and large lakes ect.
OK onto the reasons for mouth damage:-
1/ Inexperience.
2/ Too Much pressure / Heavy Handed.
3/ Over Gunned Rods........3.5 ibs Test Curve and Small Carp is a No No!
4/ Barbless Hooks have been mentioned.........The theory is that they are not held secure by a barb, meaning they twist and turn.
5/ Heavy leads have been mentioned.........Tosh IMHO as I have caught Carp under the Rod tips on 4oz Leads.
6/ Braid Lines and hook links are fine, as long as tubing is used on the main line! Also never ever use braid reel line for hook links!
The profile of Braid main line is round and will act like Cheese wire!! Where as the profile of Hook link Braid is flat, therefore causes no damage! Silkworm for example.
7/ Fishing too close to snags! You must understand how to do it safely!
Hope this is of help.
NK.
I've been a Carp Angler for over 30 years now, and can honestly say I have never damaged a Carp, if I ever did I would hang the rods up!
I have fished weedy waters, gravel pits, clay pits, small and large lakes ect.
OK onto the reasons for mouth damage:-
1/ Inexperience.
2/ Too Much pressure / Heavy Handed.
3/ Over Gunned Rods........3.5 ibs Test Curve and Small Carp is a No No!
4/ Barbless Hooks have been mentioned.........The theory is that they are not held secure by a barb, meaning they twist and turn.
5/ Heavy leads have been mentioned.........Tosh IMHO as I have caught Carp under the Rod tips on 4oz Leads.
6/ Braid Lines and hook links are fine, as long as tubing is used on the main line! Also never ever use braid reel line for hook links!
The profile of Braid main line is round and will act like Cheese wire!! Where as the profile of Hook link Braid is flat, therefore causes no damage! Silkworm for example.
7/ Fishing too close to snags! You must understand how to do it safely!
Hope this is of help.
NK.
sam vimes
Well-known member
As ever, I'm perplexed at what people consider to be "carping" and what constitutes a genuine "commercial" water (and don't bother giving me the dictionary definition of the word).
1) Fishing for pasties in an overfull commercial hole is not carping.
2) No type of inanimate object is reponsible for lipless fish. Bad anglers are responsible.
3) If modern carping techniques were really to blame, there should be hundreds of commercials out there with pristine fish, because such techniques are usually banned and those that would tend to use such techniques wouldn't set foot on such a water. Strangely, even those commercials that do ban such methods contain their share of lipless fish. As our colonial cousins would say, "go figure".
4) As someone with a foot in several fishing camps, I know that some of the modern margin pole techniques can be far more brutal than I could ever be with carp gear. See just how quickly the match types are subdueing decent sized carp
Ultimately, I've seen as many lipless roach, rudd and skimmers as I have carp. They certainly can't be attributed to any particular method or type of gear. In all I've seen over the years, I long ago concluded that an awful lot of people are simply utterly inept at unhooking fish of any size, regardless of the use of barbed or barbless hooks. Too many eedjits, with or without disgorgers/forceps/pliers, that think simply pulling is an acceptable unhooking method.
1) Fishing for pasties in an overfull commercial hole is not carping.
2) No type of inanimate object is reponsible for lipless fish. Bad anglers are responsible.
3) If modern carping techniques were really to blame, there should be hundreds of commercials out there with pristine fish, because such techniques are usually banned and those that would tend to use such techniques wouldn't set foot on such a water. Strangely, even those commercials that do ban such methods contain their share of lipless fish. As our colonial cousins would say, "go figure".
4) As someone with a foot in several fishing camps, I know that some of the modern margin pole techniques can be far more brutal than I could ever be with carp gear. See just how quickly the match types are subdueing decent sized carp
Ultimately, I've seen as many lipless roach, rudd and skimmers as I have carp. They certainly can't be attributed to any particular method or type of gear. In all I've seen over the years, I long ago concluded that an awful lot of people are simply utterly inept at unhooking fish of any size, regardless of the use of barbed or barbless hooks. Too many eedjits, with or without disgorgers/forceps/pliers, that think simply pulling is an acceptable unhooking method.
bennygesserit
Well-known member
Its a bit tiring , sometimes , to hear conventional commercials described in such disparaging terms like everyone else is in some huge "worthy" club that I'm not allowed in be ause I haven't caught a salmon on a dry fly, its like calling carpers ( whatever they are ) bivviy boys we all enjoy fishing in our own way and like to come on here to chat about it.
thecrow
Well-known member
Why the need for a 4oz lead? Not being funny btw just really dont know why such heavy leads are needed, especially "under the rod tips"
guerrillafisher
Well-known member
I think as a rule most anglers treat their quarry with the care and respect they deserve even if it is only for the slightly selfish but foresighted reason of a healthy population of fish, if we all went around yanking hooks from mouths and tossing them back in the general direction of the water we would soon be fishing emptyy waterways!.
With regards to the euthanasia of "non pristine" fish I think is unnecessary, unfortunately nature can be cruel and I have seen far worse damage on fish caused by otter,pike or cormorant than I have seen inflicted by a careless angler, and some of these now healed wounds must of been horrific at the time they were caused!, I caught this tench today and he was happy to have a go at a 15mm boilie so can't be feeling to bad!.
With regards to the euthanasia of "non pristine" fish I think is unnecessary, unfortunately nature can be cruel and I have seen far worse damage on fish caused by otter,pike or cormorant than I have seen inflicted by a careless angler, and some of these now healed wounds must of been horrific at the time they were caused!, I caught this tench today and he was happy to have a go at a 15mm boilie so can't be feeling to bad!.
The adverse publicity this type of issue can attract could be avoided by good fishery management.
The carp in question is probably from commercially developed table strain so there should be little problem in disposing of damaged but otherwise healthy specimens, providing immediate funds for restocking.
........
As for euthanasia,
My personal view, when dealing with damaged or injured wildlife, has always been, if its alive and can move and feed freely it has a chance, if you kill it, it has no chance.
The carp in question is probably from commercially developed table strain so there should be little problem in disposing of damaged but otherwise healthy specimens, providing immediate funds for restocking.
........
As for euthanasia,
My personal view, when dealing with damaged or injured wildlife, has always been, if its alive and can move and feed freely it has a chance, if you kill it, it has no chance.
cg74
Well-known member
Mick, we're not discussing 'wild' fish, this is about carp which are stocked into stillwaters... As I'm sure you're aware, it tends to be fish carrying injuries like hook damaged mouths that are at a greater risk of being infected with secondary infections like fungi, because no matter what body condition it is has; their immune system is already being challenged.
Like my earlier comparison to farm animals; they only exist for our pleasure! They are commodities, it's as simple as that! Yes, they do deserve respect, in the same way as a pig, goat, sheep, cow etc does.
If the term "euthanasia" doesn't sit well, change it to cull. Which in essence is what you're saying your second passage. And I wholly agree with your opening passage.
Imagine this scenario; there are two identical looking lakes, both idyllic lakes created by Capability Brown. With both containing identical stocks in everyway except Lake A has only pristine stocks, whereas Lake B has manky looking carp with severely damaged mouths.
Both lakes charge the same price for fishing...
Which one would you fish?
bennygesserit
Well-known member
Colin dont all commercial carp have some damage I fished a pool once that had been restocked after a flood , none of the fish had ever been caught , they were all carp and literally they seemed to be pushing each other out the way to get to the bait. They all had some curtain behind the upper lip which I have never seen before on any carp I have caught.
i have to agree with the other points you made
cg74
Well-known member
Yes most adult fish (not just ones dwelling in commercials) have scars and wounds etc; as result of spawning etc
But a common sense approach is needed, I could try and explain how much damage is too much but it'd take an eternity and it'd still be nigh on impossible to follow...
sam vimes
Well-known member
I'm not knocking this, but don't take the further step of thinking that if a fish has an in tact curtain that it has never been caught. It's an old wives tale, complete rubbish. Over the past few years I've caught a lake record fish three times, it has also been caught three times by other anglers. The last two occasions its been caught by me, its fifth and sixth time of capture. That fish still has the curtain entirely intact.
bennygesserit
Well-known member
No I said every one of the introduced fish ( introduced a few days before ) all had the curtain intact and the chances are almost all had never been caught - they were fresh from the "farm" , it may well be as you say some fish can be caught multiple times and still retain that curtain , I'd say on an average day ticket water virtually none will. Maybe you fish the types of venues where fish are handled very competently.
barbelboi
Well-known member
I have no experience of braided hooklinks but have used both flat and so called round braids as mainline. Presumably hooklink braids are coated? Not taking sides just interested in case I should ever need to use one. Be nice, I dont want to start a war.
barbelboi
Well-known member
Have a read of this, quite old now but some good information............
http://www.fishingmagic.com/news_events/news/11635-the-truth-about-braided-lines.html
Brilliant, many thanks for the link, will probably try it at some point.
chub_on_the_block
Well-known member
I got some flat profile braid for hook links a couple of years ago but never tried using it. It just seemed weird using a product that resembled dentotape. Also went completely against my established logic of using a transparent or relatively invisible material.
Regarding the earlier points about heavy leads, i would have thought that using a 3-4oz lead could add a second direction of force to be applied to the fish's mouth at the hook hold as you play it. This might have something to do with bedding the hook deeper or causing damage at the hooking point?. But i can honestly say that i have never hooked a decent fish using a lead over about 1oz, so its not something i have any direct experience of.
I agree as others have suggested that complete absence of unhooking skills or disregard to fish welfare at that stage must be a prime cause though.
Regarding the earlier points about heavy leads, i would have thought that using a 3-4oz lead could add a second direction of force to be applied to the fish's mouth at the hook hold as you play it. This might have something to do with bedding the hook deeper or causing damage at the hooking point?. But i can honestly say that i have never hooked a decent fish using a lead over about 1oz, so its not something i have any direct experience of.
I agree as others have suggested that complete absence of unhooking skills or disregard to fish welfare at that stage must be a prime cause though.
bennygesserit
Well-known member
How do you learn unhooking skills ? Common sense ? From your parents ? When I was a kid you used barbed hooks for everything and fixed bolt rigs when I started fishing again 30 years later I was an adult and had only ever seen the odd carp in certain canal stretches.