Carp with no lips!

[mick b]

How do you learn unhooking skills ? Common sense ? From your parents ? When I was a kid you used barbed hooks for everything and fixed bolt rigs when I started fishing again 30 years later I was an adult and had only ever seen the odd carp in certain canal stretches.

Yes what happened to angling skills in the intervening years..

Fixed bolt rigs shouldn't have any place in freshwater angling.

They should only be used in specific sea fishing situations eg; where the fish is for the table.


And can anyone please explain to me where angling skills are involved in fixed lead bolt fishing???
Apart from the initial positioning of the end tackle I fail to see any


.

 

[bennygesserit]

Yes what happened to angling skills in the intervening years..

Fixed bolt rigs shouldn't have any place in freshwater angling.

They should only be used in specific sea fishing situations eg; where the fish is for the table.


And can anyone please explain to me where angling skills are involved in fixed lead bolt fishing???
Apart from the initial positioning of the end tackle I fail to see any


.

I have NOT fished a fixed rig or used a barbed hook since the sixties did you misunderstand me ? Or did I misunderstand you ?

Everyone on here is so awesome at handling fish how did they attain this very high level of skill ?

I did notice today while fishing that the line cut some carp , especially if they bolted rapidly , someone else mentioned thinner and thinner lines , coupled with multiple catches is , to my mind ,one of the factors.

 

[Steve2020]

Lip damage to any fish is not what any angler wants to see however it will always be a consequence of the sport that we love while matchmen concentrate on getting as much weight in the net as quickly as humanly possible and while youngsters are learning how to fish.
It's up to us responsible anglers to help keep damage to a minimum.

 

[peter crabtree]

Lip damage to any fish is not what any angler wants to see however it will always be a consequence of the sport that we love while matchmen concentrate on getting as much weight in the net as quickly as humanly possible and while youngsters are learning how to fish.
It's up to us responsible anglers to help keep damage to a minimum.

Does 'responsible anglers' refer to anglers who don't fish matches, youngsters, and those that fish surface baits?

 

[Steve2020]

Does 'responsible anglers' refer to anglers who don't fish matches, youngsters, and those that fish surface baits?

Surely responsible anglers come in all guises don't they

 

[bennygesserit]

Its long been my ambition to catch a barney ( double figure carp ) I am convinced I got one on Friday lovely fish , caught on a method feeder , lovely cast into the swim opposite ( no one else on the pool) but what took the shine off was there was a real gash in the side of its mouth right next to where the hook was. Also the hook , a size 12 was really embedded into the side of its lips. Its mouth was in good shape really but to me , short hook links , ultra thin line must be a contributing factor in causing fish to have this condition , that plus of course , the number of captures.

 

[MRWELL]

If i am fishing for silvers with a size 20 hook and thin line how can i be sure i will not hook up on a carp?...this makes me laugh when people say never use hooks under a certain size for carp fishing,there is no way you can be sure you will not catch a carp unless there are no carp in the water to start with,i don't target carp but i catch them all the same and i use fine gear for silvers mainly,i have now gone to using 6lb lines to cater for the carp with 4lb hook lengths but i still use a small hook of 18/16 for the silvers i am after,i have not had any problems with hook causing damage on the grounds of them being small,i am not saying it does not happen just i have not seen it with me.

Over stocked pools will get this kind of thing happen because some Anglers have no idea on how to catch and play fish of any sort not just carp,i do not go with the barbed hook theory over barbless for mouth damage,if you keep in contact with the fish then the hook will not move,it is only bad playing of the fish that causes this movement...just my opinion.

 

[Ray Roberts]

If i am fishing for silvers with a size 20 hook and thin line how can i be sure i will not hook up on a carp?...this makes me laugh when people say never use hooks under a certain size for carp fishing,there is no way you can be sure you will not catch a carp unless there are no carp in the water to start with,i don't target carp but i catch them all the same and i use fine gear for silvers mainly,i have now gone to using 6lb lines to cater for the carp with 4lb hook lengths but i still use a small hook of 18/16 for the silvers i am after,i have not had any problems with hook causing damage on the grounds of them being small,i am not saying it does not happen just i have not seen it with me.

Over stocked pools will get this kind of thing happen because some Anglers have no idea on how to catch and play fish of any sort not just carp,i do not go with the barbed hook theory over barbless for mouth damage,if you keep in contact with the fish then the hook will not move,it is only bad playing of the fish that causes this movement...just my opinion.

Size 20 and fine line, I don't think would cause any damage to the fishes mouth as the rod would be matched to this. A 3lb + tc rod coupled with thin braid and no finesse is what does most damage. I have had any number of large accidental carp captures on light balanced tackle and have never caused any damage at all.

 

[sam vimes]

A 3lb + tc rod coupled with thin braid and no finesse is what does most damage.

Whilst there may be some truth in that, it still doesn't answer the reasons for the horrendous mouth damage to be found on commercial match style pools, where such gear is simply never used or is even banned completely. It also doesn't explain the tiny rudd and roach you see with top lips missing. Such kit can't do any damage where it simply isn't used.

Some folks are overly keen to blame modern carping for anything they can. Unfortunately for them, it simply can't be blamed for everything. There are aspects of modern carping that are hardly glorious. However, it's too easy, and totally unfair, to lay all of angling's ills at that particular door.

 

[bennygesserit]

Whilst there may be some truth in that, it still doesn't answer the reasons for the horrendous mouth damage to be found on commercial match style pools, where such gear is simply never used or is even banned completely. It also doesn't explain the tiny rudd and roach you see with top lips missing. Such kit can't do any damage where it simply isn't used.

Some folks are overly keen to blame modern carping for anything they can. Unfortunately for them, it simply can't be blamed for everything. There are aspects of modern carping that are hardly glorious. However, it's too easy, and totally unfair, to lay all of angling's ills at that particular door.

I agree with you I would assume you are allowed to fish an appropriate sized hook - where as on most commercials a "12" is the limit.

 

[MRWELL]

I can only say that if Rudd and Roach are being left with no mouths then it is how they are dragged across the water at breakneck speed,on match waters this is common place,some good size fish are swung to hand in stead of netting to save time,this can not be good for the fish...when you see the seasoned pros fishing you can see were the difference is,the '' i want to be a star angler'' man is the one who does most damage,they give little thought to the fish,you might guess i do not match fish but i see enough of bad practice angling from those who do to say what i have and it is no surprise fish are left with no lips as a result.

Stan.

 

[cg74]

MrWell, are you suggesting that a specialist angler targeting say tench or bream with a 2lb+ test rod coupled with 8-10lb line won't just crank in a fish of less than a pound?

As for swinging in fish of 6oz+, from what I've seen and experienced the anglers most prone to not using a landing net are pleasure and specimen anglers.
Regards tiny fish (2oz or less), who knows where their damage stems from??

Stiff rods; well going on how few anglers I see fishing on small lakes using 3lb+ rods, I can only assume they're very proficient catchers?

 

[law]

I can only say that if Rudd and Roach are being left with no mouths then it is how they are dragged across the water at breakneck speed,on match waters this is common place,some good size fish are swung to hand in stead of netting to save time,this can not be good for the fish...when you see the seasoned pros fishing you can see were the difference is,the '' i want to be a star angler'' man is the one who does most damage,they give little thought to the fish,you might guess i do not match fish but i see enough of bad practice angling from those who do to say what i have and it is no surprise fish are left with no lips as a result.

Stan.

The problem is, carp are hoovers. They will eat constantly, even after being caught. So can get caught numerous times a week, even numerous times a day sometimes. I've had the same carp 3 times in a day once.
Yet roach, rudd etc don't. They spook easily after being caught so come out less frequently, therefore suffer less from hooks.

 

[chefster]

I can only say that if Rudd and Roach are being left with no mouths then it is how they are dragged across the water at breakneck speed,on match waters this is common place,some good size fish are swung to hand in stead of netting to save time,this can not be good for the fish...when you see the seasoned pros fishing you can see were the difference is,the '' i want to be a star angler'' man is the one who does most damage,they give little thought to the fish,you might guess i do not match fish but i see enough of bad practice angling from those who do to say what i have and it is no surprise fish are left with no lips as a result.

Stan.

I match fish,and have utmost respect for the fish i catch,yes i do land fish as quickly and efficiently as i can,but i,ve never ripped the lips off of fish..Personally i think most fish lip damage is caused by inexperienced anglers and newcomers to the sport who have,nt been shown how to unhook a fish properly...i also think there are "old school" old boys who still use barbed hooks cos they,ve had them in there box ,since the year dot!..Gaz

 

[terry m]

Of course all aspects of fishing have good and bad, skilful and inept, diligent and negligent anglers within their ranks.

But on difficult waters, rivers or even medium difficulty waters the poor performers have limited impact simply because they are less likely to be catching large numbers of fish.

On commercials however the dynamic is different. Poor performers have a greater opportunity to negatively impact fish stocks through poor handling and technique as they are more likely to catch more fish in those environments.

I have no axe to grind with commercials, but this is one of the reasons I choose to avoid them.

 

[MRWELL]

MrWell, are you suggesting that a specialist angler targeting say tench or bream with a 2lb+ test rod coupled with 8-10lb line won't just crank in a fish of less than a pound?

As for swinging in fish of 6oz+, from what I've seen and experienced the anglers most prone to not using a landing net are pleasure and specimen anglers.
Regards tiny fish (2oz or less), who knows where their damage stems from??

Stiff rods; well going on how few anglers I see fishing on small lakes using 3lb+ rods, I can only assume they're very proficient catchers?

Im not saying that,i said the season pros would look after the fish better and the pressure that is applied by many is not needed,it makes no difference what your target is,if you catch a fish you treat it with respect,of course if you do not know you have a fish on and i have seen that happen,then that is different,i always use a landing net even to put the fish back and i pleasure fish but i have seen many just crank the fish in and swing it to hand and these are anglers of some years of fishing under their belts,it happens all the time and say what you like but it does the fish no good at all..many match anglers use micro barbed hooks and i know that is fact and if you get one stuck in a match what do you do i wonder,waste time?..i have seen them pull the hook out without a second thought,to them it is just a fish to count at the end,of course this is not EVERY match angler but some none the less.

---------- Post added at 21:09 ---------- Previous post was at 20:59 ----------

I match fish,and have utmost respect for the fish i catch,yes i do land fish as quickly and efficiently as i can,but i,ve never ripped the lips off of fish..Personally i think most fish lip damage is caused by inexperienced anglers and newcomers to the sport who have,nt been shown how to unhook a fish properly...i also think there are "old school" old boys who still use barbed hooks cos they,ve had them in there box ,since the year dot!..Gaz

Spot on,most damage in my books come from barbed hooks and lack of knowledge by those using them,i referred to match angler because i have seen them swing good size fish to hand many times and they use micro barbed hooks,maybe not all but some do even on waters that have barbless hooks only rules,i picked them up after matches when they have been left in the weeds in the margins,thats how i know there used,lets not get carried away,i am not saying it is all down to match anglers,the opposite in fact,it is those that dont care a sod about the fish,you guys might well do but many today don't and thats the problem.

 

[bennygesserit]

A couple of the carp I caught today suffered cut lips - looked to be the line cutting them.
Switched to a longer hooklength , rather than 4 inch on the method , tried a bigger hook ( sometimes the smaller ones embed themselves ).

I'll be honest I changed back to the shorter method hooklink , one carp put up a massive fight and ran on the clutch about five times ( rod was down near the water ) and seemed quite badly ( and freshly cut ) once I landed it.

Spoke to the pool manager he detests circle hooks which he thinks do a lot of damage.

Conclusions ? Would I use a much longer hooklink if it mean't less fish , probably - it did start to become distasteful catching carp with damage caused by me , but I am there to catch fish after all , I try to be conscientious about it but not precious.

i think I will try thicker diameter line and a slightly longer hooklink on the method , I am not sure it needs to be the thinnest diameter possible.

 

[chub_on_the_block]

What size carp was affected Benny and what BS line were you using?

---------- Post added at 22:40 ---------- Previous post was at 22:36 ----------

Some folks are overly keen to blame modern carping for anything they can. Unfortunately for them, it simply can't be blamed for everything. There are aspects of modern carping that are hardly glorious. However, it's too easy, and totally unfair, to lay all of angling's ills at that particular door.

Agree, but mouth damage seems more prevalent nowadays in anything but extremely lightly fished waters. Scale damage used to more prevalent - presumably from keepnets and matches, poor handling and no unhooking mats, than it is now. But mouth damage is in my opinion far worse. I suspect that many fish such as carp are simply getting caught more often, buts as for smaller, fish surely not?

 

[bennygesserit]

What size carp was affected Benny and what BS line were you using?

Carp from about 7 to 14.
Pre tied hooklinks and banded pellets, 4 inches long sizes 12 or 14 BS about 7 diameter ( will check tomorrow ) probably 0.21.

Played on a medium feeder rod in a small pool using the clutch to control the runs.

---------- Post added at 22:49 ---------- Previous post was at 22:42 ----------

What size carp was affected Benny and what BS line were you using?

---------- Post added at 22:40 ---------- Previous post was at 22:36 ----------



Agree, but mouth damage seems more prevalent nowadays in anything but extremely lightly fished waters. Scale damage used to more prevalent - presumably from keepnets and matches, poor handling and no unhooking mats, than it is now. But mouth damage is in my opinion far worse. I suspect that many fish such as carp are simply getting caught more often, buts as for smaller, fish surely not?

If there are 200 carp in a small pool and 10 anglers a day then these fish must be getting caught more than once a week , no time for cuts to heal.

 

[Titus]

I have no axe to grind regarding commercial fisheries and even though I have never visited one I would imagine there are good ones and there are bad ones.

However, lets not kid ourselves that it is only fish in commercial fisheries which suffer mouth damage and poor handling.
I actually left PAAS after only being a member for three seasons because the fish in one of their premier carp waters all died during a bad winter a few years ago.
It was suggested at the time that it was down to the prolonged period of freezing weather but the fact is the fish were in a terrible state with torn mouths and fungus like growths on at least half of the fish I was catching and the big freeze was just the straw which broke the camels back.
Now you might be thinking this was some little overstocked puddle and the fish were all juveniles but this was an estate lake (The Isle near Shrewsbury) and most of the fish were in the high teens to low twenties. They found and buried over 600 fish but heaven knows how many simply sank and rotted on the bottom of the lake.
This has always been a high density fishery and when I used to fish it twenty years ago as a guest of the owner the fish, although smaller, were in great condition despite catches of 200Lb being commonplace so something must have changed. I think allot of it is to do with the fashion for higher test curve rods and every fish being out of the water for ages being weighed, measured and then subjected to multiple trophy shots
But what would I know, I'm only a 'pleasure' angler.