Flavourings a catch or a must

[thecrow]

I'm quite curious do these companies make flavor enhancers for sea fishing or is this a completely stupid question

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Have a look at "online baits uk" or "baits r us" both do sea fishing oils.

 

[iannate]

I just feel that a bit of "something extra" near the hook can't do any harm.

That's what I say to myself every time I put a bait on; it hasn't improved my fishing, but my confidence and optimism is sky-high

 

[wanderer]

Cloves in your baits is a great additive, especially for winter, aniseed oil in maggots has caught me loads of fish, tench , bream , and Roach.

 

[laguna]

Aniseed yes. I'm afraid I'm at odds with you (again sorry) regards Clove oil. Its a fish repellent, its a very effective way to humanely kill fish and is used as a anaesthetic.
Anyone who has a cold and uses Olbas will potentially taint their bait as it contains clove oil.

 

[wanderer]

Streuth Chris your turning me in to the anglers version of Dr Crippen.

 

[laguna]

Streuth Chris your turning me in to the anglers version of Dr Crippen.

Ahaha sorry honestly the stuff sends my fish for cover everytime!

 

[nocturnus anglius]

One of my theories is calorie content, through lipids and sugar's.
On a more primitive level, most flavours are just merely perfumes made with airborne fragrances, so I tend to look at the bases albeit oil and glycerol.
The calorie theory does answer at lot of questions for me, but I've never seen it talked about on any forums or articles.
Amino's always seem to take centre stage, and from a moral stance you should provide the best all round bait you can, but I don't think these are as detectable as they are made out to be, neither do I think half of the flavours that are readily available today.

 

[wanderer]

Cmon Chris, love to get you and Gazza chatting about bait, two of the most knowledgeable guys i have spoken to on the subject, we might learn something new.

 

[Steve2020]

I've tried various flavourings without ever experiencing dramatic results in catch rates. I tend not to fall into the marketing trap so make a lot of my own bait. My catch rate is good for me, I'm happy with it so no reason to start shelling out on a load of expensive latest tech so called super baits.

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[nocturnus anglius]

Cmon Chris, love to get you and Gazza chatting about bait, two of the most knowledgeable guys i have spoken to on the subject, we might learn something new.

I wouldn't say I'm an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I think bait science can be a bit misleading at times and I do think amino's are over analysed as the end all and be all, as well as a lot of flavours/perfumes.

The calorie theory I have does answer a lot of questions for me, working on a common sense backing only.

 

[wanderer]

I tell you what, i reckon if you and Chris get debaiting this stuff, we are all in for a treat, i have learned a lot from you both, and you know i am a ruddy no all, looking forward to this.

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I will even give you a topic seasonal baits, cmon guys, educate us, this could be a great thread. This one puzzles me, i have my own preconceptions, am willing to be corrected.

 

[benny samways]

Great thread this. Once you start researching bait you realise that half your trouble is sifting through all the BS that becomes gospel by the so called bait gurus.

Flavours are, as Laguna said, a waste of money. Lots of them aren't even soluble, which should be the main thing we look for when trying to make a bait attractive.

I think in terms of solubility when using any bait, soluble attraction.

Someone mentioned N-Butryic acid. This is an effective attractor as it has properties that fish are hard-wired to detect, and more than likely is naturally occuring in cheese paste baits.

Heres one that annoys me, SALT. Salt is bad for the environment and has no place being added to spod mixes and the likes. Once it goes into the lake, it stays there. It has no place in bait and people should not be putting beds of salt down in lakes. Salt may be an investigation trigger for a carp but salt will not and never will trigger a feeding response.

Oils. This is another one that bait companies spin and confuse things with. Oil is not soluble and cannot be made to be so, ergo oil can not be an attractor to fish. Oil can make a bait more attractive to fish once they have eaten some bait with it in but this happens once they have consumed your bait.

It certainly helps with rolling though.

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Baits aren't seasonal either. A fishes nutritional requirements stay the same, no matter what time of year. Fish have no preferences, some things they are hard wired to respond to and others they...ain't.

 

[wanderer]

Good post Benny, i will be interested to hear what my two favourite bait mentors say to your last sentence.

 

[benny samways]

It will stand up to scrutiny. All that happens with seasonal changes is that fish will eat more or less dependent on water temps etc. It would be good if they did though, we could have bbq boilies in the summer and casserole boilies in the winter

 

[laguna]

I've tried various flavourings without ever experiencing dramatic results in catch rates.

No surprise there at all tbh. Flavours arn't anywhere as good as a Glycerite extract.

 

[nocturnus anglius]

This has all been based on what I've observed, not through any angling literature either, I find it to biased.

Original theories on amino's was carp would recognise a good balanced bait over what used to be termed a **** bait.
It doesn't stack up in my opinion, there are a number of problems with this theory.
Why would carp become so obsessed with eating peanuts, even to the brink of damaging their own health, if they knew what was good for them or not.
Why were scientists able to poison so many carp around a certain facility with laced poisoned pellets, if carp could tell the difference.
There's loads of examples of this, trout pellets, Peanuts, Tigers, maggots in fact anything that is provided in mass.
Plus it begs the question,
What is feeding triggered by?
What is a feeding stimulator?
What is attractive to Mr/Mrs Carp

Like I said before, building a good balanced bait can only benefit our quarry, or will it, seeing as they get all of what they need naturally.

Airborne flavours work differently to waterborne flavours, and a lot of what you smell albeit from a bag of boilies of a bottle of flavour had very little baring on the attractiveness to fish, which is why I look at bases.

Oils, many would have you believe there is no way a fish can detect these, but these oils are detected in a number of different ways, through the nostrils and through the skin.

Salt
I believe salt shouldn't be used, there's enough in fish meals and other substrates as it is. Adding salt to your particle, if you have to do it, make sure you dilute it in water first, because raw salt burns fish.
If you think your salt is dissolving in water once you've stuck it out, them believe me not all of it does, it kills vegetation where it lays, and once its in a water body it never comes out again as it doesn't evaporate.

 

[benny samways]

Fish can not detect oils what so ever. OIL is not soluble so therefore cannot be detected. How would a carp evolve receptors to detect something that it would never naturally encounter?
I'm not saying oil doesn’t improve a bait, it does, but in terms of attraction or investigation triggers it does NOTHING. Oil creates a reaction in the gut, once it has been consumed.

The HNV principle is easily confused. HNV baits offer fish the most in terms of what they can get from a bait in terms of growth and energy. These 'good' baits will contain investigation and feeding triggers AND will also have the end result of being beneficial to fish.

Some bad baits (ie poisoned pellet!) would still contain investigation and feeding triggers, hence why they would be consumed.

Carp are simple stimulus-response beings. They have no mechanisms for making a choice and have no preferences.

 

[nocturnus anglius]

Is it not reasonable to assume lipids are picked up by taste buds, as these taste buds are not solely located in the mouth, as you know these are also located on the barbules, pelvic and pectoral fins and down its lateral line.
As these oils are lifting from a bait, particularly if the oil molecules are carrying other substances, is it not also reasonable to assume these are probably picked up as a carp swims past a baited area?

 

[laguna]

I can discuss it until the cows come home and I wouldn't even scratch the surface!
Unfortunately the subject of fish olfactory alone would take up volumes of work, and even then, a lot of information known is through the experimentation of others gone before, some of which would need to be repeated to gain any meaningful insight into the feeding habits of fish. New research is generally concerned with natural history, predators and migratory fish, and conservation work. The rest for the development of fish feed, farming and rearing. Mostly irrelevant within recreational angling circles.

I don't agree with all that has been said, but some interesting points put forward.

Salt works as an attractor as it contains two essential electrolyte minerals but it does accumulate in the environment and there are better alternatives.
Potassium citrate is twice as electro-positive than salt due its valance shell for example
Table salt in particular should be avoided as it contains anti-caking agents
Minerals in general are sought after by fish, some are absorbed, others consumed in their diet
Fish have preferences for certain nutrients at certain times of the year and will seek them out
L-Type amino acids generally have a positive effect on fish olfactory
Oils coat and mask the natural smell of bait, it floats and does'nt mix with water. Only the glycerol component of oil is miscible with water - after saponification. Solubility being the key, I would suggest anything water-based will work more to our advantage in a watery environment though its not unreasonable to suggest that volatility of lipids has some part to play.

Masking the natural smell of bait is not necessarily a bad thing when the bait in question has no pulling power or allure. Spices and such have their place for example as it increases the attraction of something bland. Its a question of what we humans consider bland compared to the tremendously evolved fishes olfactory senses? Artificial additives with some nutritional value are okay but these are not the same as adding something that has no nutritional value like a flavour. Flavour means different things to different people though.

Amino acids are responsible for smell and taste, they can be detected by fish olfactory and trigger a feeding response There's nothing pseudoscientific about an amino acid either, though they are touted as being something special - its not all about marketing hype even though it is often seen as such. Some are capable of attracting fish (proper) into your swim more than any artificial additive can. Amino acids are naturally present as the building blocks of proteins. Fish find them attractive and recognise them as real food. Fish need 10 different essential amino acids in their diet in order to survive. They will quickly move off and seek other nutrients as required.

Flavours on the other hand are nothing but a curiosity. A waste of good money. An extract is superior but it is clear many anglers don't know the difference between what is real and what isnt.

Us anglers haven't a clue when it comes to smell and taste. We are incapable of knowing just how acutely aware and evolved fishes senses are compared to our own. To give you some idea, some species of catfish have 175,000 taste buds spread all over its body and another 20,000 inside the mouth. Other species like pike hunt more by sight than by smell and use electocensory receptors to detect their prey.

A dogs nose has 220 million scent receptors and spends most of its time sniffing other dogs bums. I read recently they can also detect illness in their owners due to the change in chemical sent from our bodies.

Its us that are the primitive ones.

 

[nocturnus anglius]

As the case with flavours yes I would agree that some at least are useless, but what about in the case of powdered attractants, I've always rated fructose and lactose, as being fish pullers but mainly combined with a birdfood basemix. Like I said I'm no expert, typical of being self taught, there are always gaps that need filling. I recently had a relatively short discussion with a fish farmer who suggest carp are driven by calories naturally derived through lipids, something to do with Optimum Feed Efficiency, which started to change my whole view towards bait. It's taught me to think on a more primitive base, yes amino's are attractive, yes they are also vital for the repair and growth. But I've never once seen calories derived from lipids and sugar's written about anywhere, hence the reason I started to contribute towards this thread.