Otters again...

[laguna]

Otters are indeed indigenous to the UK as are many other fish-eating predators, and many fish species are not. That includes carp which I think were first brought here by the Romans to be reared in ponds for food. But the problem today is not which animal has the right to exist (they all do), its to do with the severely reduced fish stocks and increased predation by the reintroduction of Otters and others proposed if the tree huggers and bunny kissing fraternity get their way. Don't get me wrong, I love nature and all wildlife but conservation needs careful management. Not too many years ago there were literally thousands of us paying anglers fishing the banks at weekends all paying into the big pot, now there are far, far less doing so today and fish stocks on rivers in particular are at critical levels in many parts of the UK. Less money paid in by anglers, means less money to replenish those stocks to feed the newly reintroduced predators.

I'm not a carp angler, I fish for all species. My original point was as to the cost of replacing fish stocks from the reintroduction of those cuddly looking predators and suggested that fish are largely ignored because they are beneath the water, and not seen as say; an otter or a beaver. I raised the issue regards cost of a big fish like a carp as an example, informing an anti that a thirty pounder may cost the owner £3K to replace.

Beavers present an indirect threat Imo. They don't eat fish but can cause localised flooding and pools upstream from dams where fish may become trapped and easier prey, reduced flow downstream and fish passage, gnawing at healthy waterside trees and vegetation eroding banks etc. He didn't care, he simply likes the idea of re-wilding - at ANY cost!

If we had more fish, we could have these predators back and in larger numbers, no problem. The situation at the moment is dire and unsustainable. Soon when the fish will have all gone, the predators will starve or turn on the waterfowl.

 

[lutra]

Otters are indeed indigenous to the UK as are many other fish-eating predators, and many fish species are not. That includes carp which I think were first brought here by the Romans to be reared in ponds for food. But the problem today is not which animal has the right to exist (they all do), its to do with the severely reduced fish stocks and increased predation by the reintroduction of Otters and others proposed if the tree huggers and bunny kissing fraternity get their way. Don't get me wrong, I love nature and all wildlife but conservation needs careful management. Not too many years ago there were literally thousands of us paying anglers fishing the banks at weekends all paying into the big pot, now there are far, far less doing so today and fish stocks on rivers in particular are at critical levels in many parts of the UK. Less money paid in by anglers, means less money to replenish those stocks to feed the newly reintroduced predators.

I'm not a carp angler, I fish for all species. My original point was as to the cost of replacing fish stocks from the reintroduction of those cuddly looking predators and suggested that fish are largely ignored because they are beneath the water, and not seen as say; an otter or a beaver. I raised the issue regards cost of a big fish like a carp as an example, informing an anti that a thirty pounder may cost the owner £3K to replace.

Beavers present an indirect threat Imo. They don't eat fish but can cause localised flooding and pools upstream from dams where fish may become trapped and easier prey, reduced flow downstream and fish passage, gnawing at healthy waterside trees and vegetation eroding banks etc. He didn't care, he simply likes the idea of re-wilding - at ANY cost!

If we had more fish, we could have these predators back and in larger numbers, no problem. The situation at the moment is dire and unsustainable. Soon when the fish will have all gone, the predators will starve or turn on the waterfowl.

You must be fishing in some dark place. Stocks of coarse fish (big and small) have never been so good in the UK. Ever.

Just a quick look at the rags from the last week or two will tell you that.

River roach run riot! — Angling Times

River barbel records and personal bests are smashed across the UK — Angling Times

Its no wonder fish predators are doing well as fish are doing very well, better than ever.

 

[Frothey]

Maybe there's more big fish around as there less little ones around to share the food with. Few big fish rather than millions of small ones.

 

[laguna]

Well it's grim up north that's for sure!

I don't read the comics.
What I do know is that for every good promotional story you find, there will be a contradictory one. If you listen to the remoaners (sorry Europhile's) for example they will tell you that fish stocks at sea are doing well under the EU Common Fisheries Policy saying; it has helped, not harmed, UK fishing grounds. If that's true, it does not explain why starving cormorants and seals have come inland recently to predate on our freshwater and migratory fish. Some might argue the reason is because there is an abundance. It might be true that there is more inland than at sea but they are been predated upon, and there are fewer in number than they once were. Both are in decline and have been for years. Signal crayfish, cormorants, otters and the lack of bailiffs and fewer anglers, plus 50 years of experience as an angler tells me all I need to know. Water quality has improved immensely since industry has declined in the UK, yet more predators and invasive's have arrived and native specimen fish are rare now compared to 30 years ago when pollution was rife.

Eels have declined by 95% (government own figures), likely due to them been easier to predate upon (jurys out on the exact reason, the government blames over-fishing yet contradicts itself by suggesting its because of competing non-native species and no mention of predators except perhaps crayfish and even then they are more concerned with salmon and trout stocks than coarse fish species; https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...o-2015-government-policy-freshwater-fisheries).

Nature England and the environment Agency have recently agreed that licensed fisheries will be allowed to humanly trap otters within fenced off areas. If fish stocks are not at risk that would never have been approved, I assume the rivers remain unprotected however.

Predation is not the only reason. "Freshwater fish are the most endangered group of animals on the planet, with more than a third threatened with extinction" Third of freshwater fish threatened with extinction - Telegraph

It would be nice to suggest that freshwater fish and angling activity is better than its ever been, it would attract more to the sport and increase our enjoyment and profits for the bait and tackle makers, but sadly it's simply not true.

 

[lutra]

Well it's grim up north that's for sure!

I don't read the comics.
What I do know is that for every good promotional story you find, there will be a contradictory one. If you listen to the remoaners (sorry Europhile's) for example they will tell you that fish stocks at sea are doing well under the EU Common Fisheries Policy saying; it has helped, not harmed, UK fishing grounds. If that's true, it does not explain why starving cormorants and seals have come inland recently to predate on our freshwater and migratory fish. Some might argue the reason is because there is an abundance. It might be true that there is more inland than at sea but they are been predated upon, and there are fewer in number than they once were. Both are in decline and have been for years. Signal crayfish, cormorants, otters and the lack of bailiffs and fewer anglers, plus 50 years of experience as an angler tells me all I need to know. Water quality has improved immensely since industry has declined in the UK, yet more predators and invasive's have arrived and native specimen fish are rare now compared to 30 years ago when pollution was rife.

Eels have declined by 95% (government own figures), likely due to them been easier to predate upon (jurys out on the exact reason, the government blames over-fishing yet contradicts itself by suggesting its because of competing non-native species and no mention of predators except perhaps crayfish and even then they are more concerned with salmon and trout stocks than coarse fish species; https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...o-2015-government-policy-freshwater-fisheries).

Nature England and the environment Agency have recently agreed that licensed fisheries will be allowed to humanly trap otters within fenced off areas. If fish stocks are not at risk that would never have been approved, I assume the rivers remain unprotected however.

Predation is not the only reason. "Freshwater fish are the most endangered group of animals on the planet, with more than a third threatened with extinction" Third of freshwater fish threatened with extinction - Telegraph

It would be nice to suggest that freshwater fish and angling activity is better than its ever been, it would attract more to the sport and increase our enjoyment and profits for the bait and tackle makers, but sadly it's simply not true.

Chris, Your in cuckoo land and talking a load of ........ There is a carp fishery on every corner now, that's why your selling carp bait.

There are some very sad stories if you want to read about sea fish, eel's, salmon, sturgeon, vendace, shetland charr, .............. But don't panic carp, tench, barbel, pike, perch, roach, bream, ............, aren't anywhere near them lists and probably never will be. In fact in some cases their spread is the problem.

 

[Frothey]

There may be more fish in more lakes lakes, but you've only got to look at match results on rivers to see there's less fish in the rivers these days. Apex predators are too protected....

 

[thecrow]

Nature England and the environment Agency have recently agreed that licensed fisheries will be allowed to humanly trap otters within fenced off areas.

I didn't know that Chris, if Otters are trapped what happens to them are they just relocated?

 

[tigger]

Chris, Your in cuckoo land and talking a load of ........ There is a carp fishery on every corner now, that's why your selling carp bait.

There are some very sad stories if you want to read about sea fish, eel's, salmon, sturgeon, vendace, shetland charr, .............. But don't panic carp, tench, barbel, pike, perch, roach, bream, ............, aren't anywhere near them lists and probably never will be. In fact in some cases their spread is the problem.

Brian, your right again... but....your wasting your breath/finger tapping, people have no idea and will continue to spout utter nonsense no matter what they're told or see with their own eyes.

There are far to many otters now, I just saw a pair of them in the bus shelter waiting for a bus ffs ....snacking on carp of all things lol mg:.

 

[Frothey]

So what we see with our own eyes is wrong? Living about 100m from where one of the most famous otters lived gives me some perspective.....

 

[tigger]

So what we see with our own eyes is wrong? Living about 100m from where one of the most famous otters lived gives me some perspective.....

Famous otter.....PMSL.

 

[Peter Jacobs]

Living about 100m from where one of the most famous otters lived gives me some perspective.....

The one from the River Torridge then Dave . . . . .

Didn't they made that one into an Indian meal: Curry Tarka, it is like a tikka . . only . . . .


'otter

 

[Frothey]

I think Tarka qualifies in that regard. There's also that one that Terry Nutkins hung around with.

Beat me to it Peter!

 

[tigger]

I think Tarka qualifies in that regard. There's also that one that Terry Nutkins hung around with.

Beat me to it Peter!

Well you should be celebrating since Tarka was spaded...in the daft film that is lol.
Terry Nutkins....hung round with an otter lol....it gets better and better PMSL.
Maybe he should have kept further away from said otter as if I remember correctly he lost half his finger to it .

I'm curious how living near an area where there had been some otter with a name makes you an authority on otters .

By the way I live half a mile from a small river that has otters, so I must be an authority on 'em also . So I can spout bullshine about them and it must be right with me living quite close to them mg:.

 

[Frothey]

Even allowing for your lack of a sense of humour - exactly what bullshit have I spouted about otters?

I'm not the one trying to tell everyone that I'm the one that's right about otter "damage" - living near otter habitats means you see a fair amount of otter kill, enough to know it can be a problem in certain areas. And no amount of anyone trying to tell me it isn't will change my view on that.

So tell me, why have match weights gone down on most rivers?

PS, the otter wasn't spaded - he went on to have a successful career on the after dinner speech circuit. Owned a pub just outside Torrington, which his kids now run.

 

[tigger]

Even allowing for your lack of a sense of humour - exactly what bullshit have I spouted about otters?

I'm not the one trying to tell everyone that I'm the one that's right about otter "damage" - living near otter habitats means you see a fair amount of otter kill, enough to know it can be a problem in certain areas. And no amount of anyone trying to tell me it isn't will change my view on that.

So tell me, why have match weights gone down on most rivers?

PS, the otter wasn't spaded - he went on to have a successful career on the after dinner speech circuit. Owned a pub just outside Torrington, which his kids now run.

Ok, Frothy I do have a little sense of humour and this...

"PS, the otter wasn't spaded - he went on to have a successful career on the after dinner speech circuit. Owned a pub just outside Torrington, which his kids now run."

...did make me smile .

Regarding match weights on rivers, apart from the fact that most matches I ever hear of or see are on still waters or canals (obviously for convenience) I have no idea about that, unless the anglers who do match fish on rivers just arn't as good as the ones from past years!

I fish quite a few rivers that have resident otters and walk long one river pretty much everyday and I see no remains of fish left by otters. I remember only last year, I was standing directly on top of a active otter holt and caught chub after chub whilst trotting, not to mention the dace and barbel!
Only yesterday I fished two stretches of the Dee and had no end of dace, trout and grayling, same on the dove, the dane and the eden etc etc...they all have otters present. As Brain said, the rivers have more fish present today that ever I can remember!

At the end of the day the amount of otters across the country is next to nothing and I would imagine it'll always be so. Just how many fish do people think an otter can eat ffs. I reckon one weekend of matches will cause the demise of more fish than all the otters in the country will consume in several years, but that's ok .

 

[tom_moran]

Wow, I notice the people who are defending otters are the ones using sarcasm and insults......

The Avon local to me has had the barbel and now chub stocks hit hard since otters were re introduced.

I'm all for having native animals re instroduced but it needs (needed) to be done using some of the old grey matter.

Sent from my E6853 using Tapatalk

 

[lutra]

Wow, I notice the people who are defending otters are the ones using sarcasm and insults......

The Avon local to me has had the barbel and now chub stocks hit hard since otters were re introduced.

I'm all for having native animals re instroduced but it needs (needed) to be done using some of the old grey matter.

Sent from my E6853 using Tapatalk

I don't see how they could have used anymore grey matter Tom. Angling has pretty much gone off the scale of not bothering to us it.

Otters have never been extinct and have been making a steady comeback in England on their own. To my knowledge it was largely only south east England that they were given a helping hand in. Given time they would have got there anyway on their own.

Otters have been back on the River Ribble for the last 30 years that I know of. As Ian (tigger) rightly points out, its still full of barbel, chub,....... In a good health, self sustaining water there will not be a problem with otters eating fish. No more than there is with pike, ........

English angling needs/needed a kick in the teeth. It has taken it upon its self to set up unsustainable, unnatural, over stocked and unprotected waters big time in resent years. If you keep chickens don't leave them out for a fox to find. If you grow prized cabbages you need to think about birds, butterflies, slugs, ........ If you want to keep fish, leave them outside and give them names, you need to use a bit of grey matter and think about it. I grow cabbages and crying don't help.

 

[Peter Jacobs]

If you keep chickens don't leave them out for a fox to find

Quite right but not exactly a proper parallel, is it.

More accurately it was far more like keeping chickens and having a third party introduce a pack of foxes to your backyard!

There is no defence whatsoever for the actions of those who reintroduced this apex predator without full and proper PRIOR consultation with the angling world.

 

[lutra]

Quite right but not exactly a proper parallel, is it.

More accurately it was far more like keeping chickens and having a third party introduce a pack of foxes to your backyard!

There is no defence whatsoever for the actions of those who reintroduced this apex predator without full and proper PRIOR consultation with the angling world.

No don't agree Peter. Otter have never been extinct and would have made a comeback to all area's anyway.

No more (less really) reason to consult with angling than angling has with anyone else on stocking carp everywhere.

Otters have never been released wholesale in one place like a pack of foxes in a backyard. That's just more bull that we see all the time in angling.

In the last 40 years that I have fished I have heard countless bull from anglers and angling about how coarse fish are going to be wiped out by this that and the other. Its just bull, Coarse fish are at an all time high in the UK and otters will not change that.

 

[Frothey]

No don't agree Peter. Otter have never been extinct and would have made a comeback to all area's anyway.

We don't know that do we - if they are going to naturally repopulate, they will find their own way and didn't need us to help - nature will find its own balance. It's where Otters have been introduced into rivers that can't support them where they become a problem.

Just because the Ribble is ok, doesn't mean that all rivers are ok. In the same way, the "lack" of carp in the Ribble doesn't mean that Carp aren't a pest elsewhere.

Anyway, let's keep the argument going round and round.......