Otters again...

trotter2

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I live in an area were 15 years ago you never seen an otter, now you see them almost every other trip. The large fish population has plummeted and match weight are down.
If you fortunate enough to catch bigger fish like chub they often carry the bite marks which tell the story.
 

Philip

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Ok I tried not to get sucked into the Otter debate but I’ll get on my soap box for a moment …

The thing I have never really understood about Otters is what exactly is the advantage to having them back ? To me it seems the only reason they are being re-introduced is because someone somewhere has decided its “good”.

Ok lets be fair …I sort of understand the reintroduction of native species but surely you only reintroduce something if there is a positive or plus side to it ?

Can someone tell me what is the positive or plus side to an Otter ? Either from an environmental or a human aspect ?

On the environmental side what exactly do they do ? …being the Apex predator all they actually appear to do is eat everything else.

On the human side what positive do they bring or interest do they provide the average person using the river ?

Fact is in all the time I have spent by rivers (and as an angler I spend ALLOT of time by rivers) I have never ever seen anyone out “Otter spotting” or come across an “Otter enthusiast”. Plus the bloody things hide all day anyway, so unless your part of the 0.00001% of the population who might actually have enough interest to get up off their backsides and go looking for them - what difference, benefit or additional enjoyment do they add for the average river user ?

The fact is most of the general public if they are honest about it simply like the IDEA of having Otters back because they once watched a David Attenbourgh documentary with Otters being cute on it. The reality however is that it makes zero actual difference to them whether Otters are physically there or not. They have no interest in Otters, they will never go out looking for an Otter and they probably could not tell an Otter from water Vole even if they saw one.

So you have to wonder why anglers, who appear to outnumber genuine Otter enthusiasts by literally 10,000 to 1 and DO have a genuine interest in fish and rivers have to watch as their fish stocks get decimated by an animal that only a tiny proportion of the public will ever benefit from or have any real interest in whatsoever.
 

thecrow

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So you have to wonder why anglers, who appear to outnumber genuine Otter enthusiasts by literally 10,000 to 1 and DO have a genuine interest in fish and rivers have to watch as their fish stocks get decimated by an animal that only a tiny proportion of the public will ever benefit from or have any real interest in whatsoever.

Because imho those that represent anglers where an argument could be put forward for the case of otters being controlled lack the needed testicular fortitude to do anything about it, while others like the RSPB make hay with the otter using it in their publications and any PR even though they know that otters have killed rare birds such as the bittern.
 

Philip

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The simplest solution to keep everyone happy is to just lie about it.

Send out a press release telling the general public that 5000 Otters have been re-introduced to the Avon and they will say “that’s great” and never be any the wiser because the truth is they simply don’t care.

Anglers happy. Public happy. Job done :thumbs:
 
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lutra

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Ok I tried not to get sucked into the Otter debate but I’ll get on my soap box for a moment …

The thing I have never really understood about Otters is what exactly is the advantage to having them back ? To me it seems the only reason they are being re-introduced is because someone somewhere has decided its “good”.

Ok lets be fair …I sort of understand the reintroduction of native species but surely you only reintroduce something if there is a positive or plus side to it ?

Can someone tell me what is the positive or plus side to an Otter ? Either from an environmental or a human aspect ?

On the environmental side what exactly do they do ? …being the Apex predator all they actually appear to do is eat everything else.

On the human side what positive do they bring or interest do they provide the average person using the river ?

Fact is in all the time I have spent by rivers (and as an angler I spend ALLOT of time by rivers) I have never ever seen anyone out “Otter spotting” or come across an “Otter enthusiast”. Plus the bloody things hide all day anyway, so unless your part of the 0.00001% of the population who might actually have enough interest to get up off their backsides and go looking for them - what difference, benefit or additional enjoyment do they add for the average river user ?

The fact is most of the general public if they are honest about it simply like the IDEA of having Otters back because they once watched a David Attenbourgh documentary with Otters being cute on it. The reality however is that it makes zero actual difference to them whether Otters are physically there or not. They have no interest in Otters, they will never go out looking for an Otter and they probably could not tell an Otter from water Vole even if they saw one.

So you have to wonder why anglers, who appear to outnumber genuine Otter enthusiasts by literally 10,000 to 1 and DO have a genuine interest in fish and rivers have to watch as their fish stocks get decimated by an animal that only a tiny proportion of the public will ever benefit from or have any real interest in whatsoever.

Its a fair question Philip and I would have to agree releasing (not reintroducing in many cases) otters was a bit pointless. They were coming back anyway. It was just a matter of time.

Personally I think its a little sad that so many fisheries and anglers couldn't see it coming and are just looking for someone to try and blame. But so much of modern angling seems out of touch with reality and unsustainable to me.
 

steve2

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Did anyone watch country file the other day the section about Edible Dormice. It seems these are known to be a alien species that escaped from a private zoo and it is fast becoming a pest but under some wildlife act it is illegal to kill them. Even the people that were trapping them were releasing back into the wild.
If we can’t cull something that’s known to be a pest what chance do we have with Otters.
 

trotter2

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Its a fair question Philip and I would have to agree releasing (not reintroducing in many cases) otters was a bit pointless. They were coming back anyway. It was just a matter of time.

Personally I think its a little sad that so many fisheries and anglers couldn't see it coming and are just looking for someone to try and blame. But so much of modern angling seems out of touch with reality and unsustainable to me.

I think the reason why that is lutra is the last time it happened on the same scale it was outside of living memory.
No one actually had any experience of what to expect until it was late.
 

lutra

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I think the reason why that is lutra is the last time it happened on the same scale it was outside of living memory.
No one actually had any experience of what to expect until it was late.

Yes I agree we've never had otters in living memory at today's levels, but numbers have been climbing for over 40 years and its been well known over the last 25 years for most of England. Surveys have been done and reported but largely ignored by clubs and fisheries.

I do know some waters (big complexes) that paid to put otter fencing up 20 years ago. In the same time most have carried on stocking open waters to high levels and some still do.
 

trotter2

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Yes I agree we've never had otters in living memory at today's levels, but numbers have been climbing for over 40 years and its been well known over the last 25 years for most of England. Surveys have been done and reported but largely ignored by clubs and fisheries.

I do know some waters (big complexes) that paid to put otter fencing up 20 years ago. In the same time most have carried on stocking open waters to high levels and some still do.


What would make you think clubs and fisheries would be ignore this problem?
 

lutra

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What would make you think clubs and fisheries would be ignore this problem?

What else would you call stocking waters to high levels in resent years and still do it in some cases yet not take any measures to protect them?
 

trotter2

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There is legally only one way to offer protection lutra, and like what has already been discussed its not always possible in all cases. Rivers and club Stillwater's are typical scenarios where its sometimes not possible to implement.
 

Philip

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Did anyone watch country file the other day the section about Edible Dormice. It seems these are known to be a alien species that escaped from a private zoo and it is fast becoming a pest

Maybe the solutions in the name... -edible- Dormice.

Not one of Dormice's better evoluntionary moves by the sounds. They should have grown a shell or something.:D
 

lutra

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There is legally only one way to offer protection lutra, and like what has already been discussed its not always possible in all cases. Rivers and club Stillwater's are typical scenarios where its sometimes not possible to implement.

Most rivers are doing very well despite the doom and gloom anglers spew. What river are you on about?

UK’s rivers alive with huge roach — Angling Times
 

peter crabtree

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Did anyone watch country file the other day the section about Edible Dormice. It seems these are known to be a alien species that escaped from a private zoo and it is fast becoming a pest but under some wildlife act it is illegal to kill them. Even the people that were trapping them were releasing back into the wild.
If we can’t cull something that’s known to be a pest what chance do we have with Otters.

The Romans bought edible dormice to the uk as a food source.
We call them glis glis round here....
 

steve2

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I suppose once again they can't be culled because they look cuddly. Look more like small squirrels than our native dormice.
 

Philip

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The Romans bought edible dormice to the uk as a food source.
We call them glis glis round here....

I think your right Peter...I did hear that somewhere else too.

Thing is you would have thought the Romans would have been better off just eating something bigger like a Cow.

Perhaps the dormice were just a snack ? …like a sort of Roman version of M&Ms..

:)
 

laguna

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Chris, Your in cuckoo land and talking a load of ........ There is a carp fishery on every corner now, that's why your selling carp bait.

There are some very sad stories if you want to read about sea fish, eel's, salmon, sturgeon, vendace, shetland charr, .............. But don't panic carp, tench, barbel, pike, perch, roach, bream, ............, aren't anywhere near them lists and probably never will be. In fact in some cases their spread is the problem.
You're in denial yet you go on to acknowledge that otters have spread elsewhere in this thread. It might be that you see it more of a natural phenomenon rather than a problem? I can agree that nature in all forms should co-exist but there is NOT anywhere near the numbers of fish present to sustain them - naturally.
There might well be a carp puddle on every corner, and we might sell bait suitable for carp as you say, but its not because we have a vested interest in carp or the carp market per se. We design natural long-life baits suitable for all disciplines of the sport, barbel anglers amongst them, match and predator too.

---------- Post added at 02:59 ---------- Previous post was at 01:36 ----------

I didn't know that Chris, if Otters are trapped what happens to them are they just relocated?
They will supposedly be taken to an enclosed sanctuary, where I don't know mate.

" just out of interest, do you think that otters had completely gone from the Hampshire Avon? How many do you believe were released?
Let me put it this way: I have lived and fished in this areas for many decades and prior to the reintroduction had not seen a single otter for over 30 years.

This year alone I have seen 8 dead on the road which runs parallel with the river here in the upper reaches.

I have no idea, and in all probability no one else does either, as to how many were reintroduced here, either legally or otherwise.

There is a relatively local establishment where there are (allegedly) quite often escapees, well, according the owners they are "escapees"
You would be lucky to see them Peter as they are secretive animals and largely nocturnal hunters. The Otter Trust released 117 captive-bred otters between 1983 and 1999, mostly on East Anglian rivers, but with some elsewhere. The last release was of 17 otters on the upper Thames catchment over a six-month period in 1999.
The Vincent Wildlife Trust released a further 49 rehabilitated animals (i.e. orphaned and injured wild otters kept in captivity until fit for release) between 1990 and 1996, many of these as part of a release programme in Yorkshire.
It is likely that there are several thousand otters present in England today.

The Above is taken directly from the Angling Trust who attribute their recent 'success' to the banning of dieldrin and related pesticide type chemicals which also affected birds and other wildlife. They acknowledge that the recovery of otters in the UK is impacting inland fisheries through predation. The situation is complex, and it is not clear why some waters have not been affected, even though otters are present.


Yes I agree we've never had otters in living memory at today's levels, but numbers have been climbing for over 40 years and its been well known over the last 25 years for most of England. Surveys have been done and reported but largely ignored by clubs and fisheries.

I do know some waters (big complexes) that paid to put otter fencing up 20 years ago. In the same time most have carried on stocking open waters to high levels and some still do.
Some fisheries are overstocked of that there is no denying. I think many who fence now perhaps originally felt they didn't need to when otter population growth was slow or absent in their particular neck of the woods.

Otters catch and eat predominantly live animals; there is limited evidence of dead fish being eaten, although this does occur occasionally. Their average daily consumption of food in captivity is about 1.5kg/day. If what they catch are too large to consume they will only eat the best bit - the head, and discard the rest. As far as I know they do not have a preference for eels as some would believe, carp, roach or any other species -they will eat whatever is available to them.
Many more fish escape been killed but a lot also die from wounds of 'near misses' sometime later. Unfortunately, the bigger fish are often easier to catch.
 
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thecrow

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Found this its point 19 from the licence application form

Any trapped otter must be released outside the fishery fence in the vicinity of the fishery and close to a water body (unless the animal is a lactating female in which case Condition 20 applies).

Begs the point that if the otter was able to get through the fence in the first place releasing it where it was trapped is inviting it to do the same again, makes no sense to me.
 
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lutra

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Found this its point 19 from the licence application form

Any trapped otter must be released outside the fishery fence in the vicinity of the fishery and close to a water body (unless the animal is a lactating female in which case Condition 20 applies).

Begs the point that if the otter was able to get through the fence in the first place releasing it where it was trapped is inviting it to do the same again, makes no sense to me.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/otters-licence-to-capture-and-transport-those-trapped-in-fisheries-to-prevent-damage
 

trotter2

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So if your fishery has no fence you are powerless.
Sounds all wrong to me.
 
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