Best boilie

[laguna]

If I had the space for the decent quantities I want, I'd probably go for freezer baits. As it is I don't, so shelfies will have to do.

As regards to types/flavours, it all depends on the waters concerned. What works on one will not work on another. There is no defacto "best" boilie, and there never will be.

Agreed. Only better.... and each day is different!

I might be wrong in saying this, but I think those who buy (prefer) freezer baits do so because of the problem of storing boilies with a 'limited' shelf-life?

Unless you have a bait freezer, I think most anglers will struggle with room to bulk buy to freeze.

Many modern shelf-life's contain preservatives whereas freezer baits are normally devoid - therefore are questionably superior. If you take a look at foods you buy from supermarkets it states they can be stored frozen/consumed within 3 months in the domestic freezer. However many consumers often exceed this time without realising, and not many I hear about get food poisoning. Fish are also more hardy where some moulds are concerned so I can't see it being such a big deal.
I prefer my baits a little on the wiffy side anyway. Ive stored some cheese paste for 3 years in the freezer no problem and some for 6 months in the fridge.

Bunkers available next season - which some of us are hoping to test in exchange for some honest feedback, aims to have a shelf-life exceeding any other on the market. This means they wouldn't have to be kept in the freezer, and are every bit as good as a freezer bait. In fact they should be better if left to mature over time.

If they go mouldy I'll eat my hat! mg:

Ps. the common enemies of bait keepers are high humidity, light and temperatures i.e. The goldilocks environment which will harbour growth of many moulds and strains of bacteria.

Oh and as for alcohol; it works but it denatures the proteins, masks the natural smell of amino acids and has no nutritional value whatsoever. It can ruin a good expensive bait imo. Think fish don't care?
Much better to use SAC juice bait activators - its a food grade additive and be assured it will not freeze in a typical British winter (independently tested down to a staggering -46.5 (°C)) not even up here in the grim north.

Ps we put our heating on last week for the first time Brrrrrr.

 

[cg74]

Judging by wha some have said about t1 before he sold, they'll probably be better!

I consistently found Baitcraft T1 boilie's to be a very good product, Mark's customer service skills were not the best but that never bothered me.


I also heard that standard slipped towards the end but thankfully mine seem to be as they always were.

 

[Frothey]

Laguna - how does alcohol mask the "smell" of amino acids? Surely the acids will still trigger the receptors?

As you know, not all mounds and bacteria are bad, some are positively useful!

 

[laguna]

Laguna - how does alcohol mask the "smell" of amino acids? Surely the acids will still trigger the receptors?

As you know, not all mounds and bacteria are bad, some are positively useful!

Alcohol denatures proteins by folding. Proteins that fold lose their natural smell. When you add alcohol to bait/foods it alters and masks remnant natural smells and converts them to that of a synthetic ester. Alcohol and acid combos are often used in the production of shop bought flavours for example but are essentially a synthetic/artificial that might smell nice to an angler willing to part with his/her hard earned. Natural alcohols contribute to the natural smell of amino acids, but adding extra alcohol (includes flavours) is one of the main reasons a bait gets blown.

Triggering receptors with alcohol will arouse curiosity at best but will often spook the wiser fish. I would concede it might make little difference if you are only fishing to hungry competing fish with little else to eat, but it would not be the ideal, neither nutritionally nor as an attractor than the real thing.

Agreed there are some beneficial moulds and bacteria and there are some toxic ones too. Luckily the fish seem to prefer the friendly kind and will generally avoid the bad ones as many other creatures do. Instead they are consumed by microbs over time. Many fish will consume yeasts (bread, fruit skins) and mould growing on foods (cheese, continental sausage) that contributes to the pre-digestion process. Pre-digestion making it easier for them to digest without too much strain on the pancreas - especially beneficial for carp with a short digestive tract and poor digestibilities due to enzyme depletion. Natural enzymes present (raw/uncooked) also contributes to the pre-digestion process... tenderised steak and bruised cut and chopped foods.

 

[thecrow]

As you know, not all mounds and bacteria are bad, some are positively useful!

Cant argue with that

 

[Frothey]

In think were talking at cross purposes Laguna. Iirc back from when I used to be more into bait - yes, alcohol can denature protein, but it's the amino's that fish detect, not protein. Alcohol can inhibit the absorption of some amino's, but the fish will still sense them. Besides, if it's used for hookbaits only, that doesn't matter. EA flavours won't really affect this as the amount of alcohol is so small per kilo, especially as it leaks out of e bait so quickly - which is why it's used!

If you can get a bait to pre-digest, great - you're splitting proteins to give off amino's. You can do this in two ways - use a catalyst/enzyme like bromelain or papyin in the bait (Nutrabaits addit digest anyone?), but tbh just a bit of careful thought about ingredients (Brewers yeast/Brocacel) and putting the bait in a warm place in a sealed bag will get baits going. Richworths original tutti's when they contained Pruteen and baits like mainlines Grange and Activ8 responded well to it, id only use the, when they had that nice white coating of sugars.

But they aren't eating it because it's easier to digest, they are eating it because the bait screams "food"!!!

 

[Philip]

The Grange was a bait that looked like proper fish food to me.

Some of the stuff we get nowadays seems more at home in a kids sweet shop.

 

[Keith M]

Going back a few years I had my best days Tenching using Active X baits with seven Tench between 5.5lb and 7.4lb from my local estate lake. Back in those days a 5lb Tench was a really good fish (it still is as far as I'm concerned Lol).

Keith

 

[laguna]

it's the amino's that fish detect, not protein.

An amino acid is what makes up a protein!
Proteins consist of hundreds of smaller amino acids (units) that are attached to each other by peptide bonds, forming a long chain like beads on a piece of string. These are what the fish can detect - if they are unadulterated.

Amino acids (the smaller units that make up a protein) are what's responsible for a foods unique smell. If you add alcohol, you mask that smell its as simple as that. Adding even the smallest amount of alcohol can ruin a good bait.

Alcohol can inhibit the absorption of some amino's, but the fish will still sense them.

What does that even mean?

If you can get a bait to pre-digest, great - you're splitting proteins to give off amino's.

Correct.

...when they had that nice white coating of sugars.

that nice coating of sugars.... isn't sugars though is it? its oft repeated but simply put; it aint sugar!

they aren't eating it because it's easier to digest,

in true pantomime style.... oh yes they are!
actually given a choice - they most certainly will. The choice of an adulterated bait or an unprocessed/natural food bait the natural wins every time.

 

[Frothey]

An amino acid is what makes up a protein!

Yes, but if the Amino isn't "free" the fish won't detect it. A lump of egg white is high in protein, but useless as a bait. You need to split the protein down for it to be useful, or the fish won't sense it.

What does that even mean?

Alcohol doesn't stop the amino existing, it doesn't stop it "smelling", all it does is limit the absorbtion of some amino's in the gut. Carp don't "smell" as we do, and the alcohol doesn't bond onto the amino to stop them triggering the receptors on the fish.

Isn't sugars though.....

Depends on the make up of the bait, some it is - others it's a culture. Have a lick.

In true pantomime style......

They aren't. How does a fish know it's going to be easy to digest until it's eaten and digested it? And on the majority of waters where it could've picked up loads of different baits, how does it know which one was the easiest to digest? I think we give fish way too much credit. Its the pre digestion kicking out amino's that he fish find attractive, not the fact it can digest it easily. Otherwise why are bird food baits so successful?

The choice of an adulterated bait or an unprocessed/natural food bait the natural wins every time.

What is an adulterated bait? Pretty much every ingredient we use is processed..... unless you mean using particles/maggots/worms/etc

All that happens is that the fish comes across a little ball that is giving off an amazing food signal due to all the free amino's leaching out of it. Next to it is a little ball that is the perfect balance of protein, carbs and fibre, but not leaching any signals. Which one is it going to pick up? How does it know the the second one is the perfect food balance until it eats it? And if it picks both up, how does it know which one did it good?

I do think you are getting hung up on this alcohol thing, it's a solvent, nothing else. I've never seen any research that says it masks the "smell" of amino's - to quote a great man, what does at actually mean? Carp don't "smell" as we do anyway?

What's the point of flavours anyway? What are we trying to achieve? Some may imitate a natural food signal and work that way, others act as a pH buffer, or to change the pH of a bait markedly one way or the other - which can illicit a response from fish. One thing I'm sure is no fish has ever swam around thinking "yum, there's a strawberry - oh wait, there's a coconut. Ah, a chocolate bar!" - its what those flavours are made up of that may add something, the rest is to catch the angler.

---------- Post added at 07:19 ---------- Previous post was at 06:47 ----------

A certain Essex based X-Factor wannabe writes a lot of twaddle about bait and bait formulation - but to be fair to him, when you read between the lines what are we trying to achieve? And how do we achieve it? And how does he afford all cc moores ingredients lol

---------- Post added at 07:40 ---------- Previous post was at 07:19 ----------

This isn't aimed at you as I know you have your thoughts on bait - and TBH we do actually have the same ideas, just different ways of he same end goals (soluble, natural attraction) but if anyone is wondering about things, just try and work out if and why the following are good attractors

Nash/Hutchies original Scopex
Nash/Hutchies original Chocolate Malt
Solar Squid and Octopus Koi Rearer
Hutchies Secret Agent
Brewers Yeast
Chilli Powder
Garlic
Blue Cheese
Icing Sugar
Richworths original freezer baits (OK, not an attractor, but worth understanding)

Or just buy a bag of Cell and clean up lol

---------- Post added at 07:47 ---------- Previous post was at 07:40 ----------

Don't you hate the way the forum puts all posts into one post!

 

[Roto Fryer]

when i lived in the UK i always made my own bait. !0 years down the line on my first visit to the UK i decided to have a couple of sessions so bought my bait from Geoff Bowers Active Bait Solutions - Carp Bait Manufacturers in Kent
I personally chose spicy red enzyme, however, as i had the flu for all my visit i did not manage to get out. My landing net had also been eaten and one of my delks had an old battery stuck in it other than that i found i no longer had a carp mat so ill be over again in march so ill get my delks fixed, buy a landing net and mat and probably get out in September. The only thing i miss about th e UK is my fishing.
Why should you make your own bait?
for me it is an essential part of it learning what's in it and how to formulate your baits along with how would a fish detect your bait. it is much cheaper for a higher quality (generally but not always) bait if you don't count your time.

 

[Frothey]

Geoff is one of the best bait brains in England. Still owes me a pair of waders tho.

 

[laguna]

Last word on this.
Amino acids are what gives a bait its unique smell. We all know fish don't smell as we do, its just how us anglers refer to flavours; fish use chemo-receptors, nares, collectively olfaction. By adding alcohol you're essentially causing the amino acids to fold (denature) thereby masking the natural smell of a food item. Many modern flavours even the so called 'nature identical' flavours are anything but, they are nothing more than a substitute for the real thing (acid/alcohol esters). All your doing is simply substituting the real smell for something artificial. Your 'masking' it.

Fish may be stupid but they're not so daft when it comes to instinct.

Alcohol, just like heat causes the amino acids to fold, so in this respect the proteins become denatured - just like a boiled egg, and no doubt equally as useless.
The best you can hope for is to substitute the natural smell of amino acids with something man made which is better. If alcohol is anywhere in the equation then you might as well flavour a rock!

 

[Roto Fryer]

Last word on this.
Amino acids are what gives a bait its unique smell. We all know fish don't smell as we do, its just how us anglers refer to flavours; fish use chemo-receptors, nares, collectively olfaction. By adding alcohol you're essentially causing the amino acids to fold (denature) thereby masking the natural smell of a food item. Many modern flavours even the so called 'nature identical' flavours are anything but, they are nothing more than a substitute for the real thing (acid/alcohol esters). All your doing is simply substituting the real smell for something artificial. Your 'masking' it.

Fish may be stupid but they're not so daft when it comes to instinct.

Alcohol, just like heat causes the amino acids to fold, so in this respect the proteins become denatured - just like a boiled egg, and no doubt equally as useless.
The best you can hope for is to substitute the natural smell of amino acids with something man made which is better. If alcohol is anywhere in the equation then you might as well flavour a rock!

so essential oils are out then?

 

[Frothey]

Totally Roto, they aren't even soluble, how can they possibly work?

Chris - I'm not trying to be clever (because I'm not) - and please don't stop posting, as there is very little useful/interesting stuff posted on the carp section of this site. People never learn anything if they just agree with each other all the time. But if alcohol is so bad, where does that leave Nutrabaits famous Strawberry EA/Bergamot EO combo? Going by a lot of what's said about bait, the alcohol is a repellant and some say EO's don't attract fish?

I think where the confusion is, is in the way you say "smell" - as I mentioned previously and you've said in your last post it's their action on the receptors.

If I recall correctly and without wiki'ing it (and shocking my biology teacher!) Amino's don't fold, it's Protein that folds and amino's have an affect on the structure of that fold. The only effect that alcohol really has is in the metabolising of the amino - it's still there, they can still sense it, it just won't do them any good. In bait terms the only things that really "kill" amino's are temperature and the pH being outside its range, which is why it's hard to get them to work in a real world boilie. Another reason to use paste! Apart from the fact the pH over the gravel in the margin will be different to that silty patch by the lily pads.

But that one session you get it right, the moon and stars align, and you catch the bait at the right time, you'll bag up. Used to happen quite often the time in the milk/enzyme days, but rarely twice!

It's Proteins and Nucleic acids don't like alcohol......