Carp Hooks

[alexmack]

I believe quite a clubs and syndicates still allow barbed or barbless with the belief that the barb holds the hook in place more during the fight. This is said to fix the hook in place and lesson the risk of it slipping and tearing in the mouth?! Barbless however, allow fish to more easily shed hooks if tethered to lost rigs and aid unhooking.

I still am not sure how true these two arguments are and whether I believe the 'pro barb' argument for fish welfare or not. has anyone else heard this or am I talking boilies!?

Personally I now go barbless!!!

 

[sam vimes]

I am surprised at the comments confirming the use of barbed and micro barb hooks. I thought, most fisheries request barbless hooks only, the last time I used a micro barb hook must have been 15 years ago.

I believe quite a clubs and syndicates still allow barbed or barbless with the belief that the barb holds the hook in place more during the fight. This is said to fix the hook in place and lesson the risk of it slipping and tearing in the mouth?! Barbless however, allow fish to more easily shed hooks if tethered to lost rigs and aid unhooking.

I still am not sure how true these two arguments are and whether I believe the 'pro barb' argument for fish welfare or not. has anyone else heard this or am I talking boilies!?

Personally I now go barbless!!!

There are more than the odd big carp waters around now that go a lot further than just allowing barbed/micro-barbed hooks, they actually ban the use of barbless hooks.

I can't say that I mind either way, I just do as I'm told. However, I've no aversion to using barbed hooks at all. One thing is for sure, I wouldn't want to go grayling fishing without barbed hooks.

 

[pointngo]

I believe quite a clubs and syndicates still allow barbed or barbless with the belief that the barb holds the hook in place more during the fight. This is said to fix the hook in place and lesson the risk of it slipping and tearing in the mouth?! Barbless however, allow fish to more easily shed hooks if tethered to lost rigs and aid unhooking.

I still am not sure how true these two arguments are and whether I believe the 'pro barb' argument for fish welfare or not. has anyone else heard this or am I talking boilies!?

you're not talking boilies Alex.. the argument has been going on for years but everyone has to make their own minds up based on their experience. Some fishery owners believe one thing, others another.

I think it is a valid point with regards to a barbless hook damaging mouths, although the size of the carp and the anglers fishing for them probably has a bearing. There's no doubt barbless are easier to remove but I think the damage is done by then anyway.

The way I see it is that during a fight, a hook is under varying amounts of pressure all the time (not necessarily noticeable).. with a barbed hook it goes in on the strike/bolt and stays put as it can't go backwards. With barbless the hook is allowed to slightly move in and out under the varying pressure, and so keeps jabbing (for want of a better word) into the hole where the hook entered. Along with the easier sideways movement of barbless hooks it causes more damage imho.

There's a lot of difference in damage with different hook shapes as well. For any of you old enough to remember the first bent hooks, you'll remember the horrific way they turned in... and often went in, out and back in.

Micro-barbs for me. Stay put and easier to remove.

 

[greenie62]

The way I see it is that during a fight, a hook is under varying amounts of pressure all the time (not necessarily noticeable).. with a barbed hook it goes in on the strike/bolt and stays put as it can't go backwards. With barbless the hook is allowed to slightly move in and out under the varying pressure, and so keeps jabbing (for want of a better word) into the hole where the hook entered. Along with the easier sideways movement of barbless hooks it causes more damage imho.
.
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Micro-barbs for me. Stay put and easier to remove.

Some good arguments either way on this thread - nice to see a good debate going on in FM without the bickering! mg:

Sorry Point,
Can't agree ... by your own arguments above ... the micro-barb seems to be a compromise that has the worst of both worlds - it 'removes' easily (like the barbless) and 'stays put as it can't go backwards' (like the barbed) - given that the barb itself causes damage as it moves in the hold are you saying the micro barb causes less 'cos its a smaller barb?

Your main concern regarding barbless is that the varying pressure during the fight causes the point to re-jab - why is there varying pressure?
Is it because anglers are using rods that are too stiff (e.g. 2-3lb TC) and with insufficient play/through-action to keep a constant pressure on the fish?
Perhaps this exemplifies the points made by other posters on threads on lip-damage that the key is to use balanced tackle and not use the 'skull-dragging' techniques that over-powered tackle can result in? Hook & Land at all costs!?

 

[sam vimes]

Your main concern regarding barbless is that the varying pressure during the fight causes the point to re-jab - why is there varying pressure?

The pressure on a hook hold varies regardless of the type of gear being used. I defy anyone to suggest that, once they hook a fish, their rod/pole takes on a certain bend and never varies through an entire fight. A fish turning and moving in a different direction will vary the pressure on a hook hold. The flow of a river will vary as a fish moves through it and the pressure on a hookhold varies with it. The only thing that an angler should never let happen is a zero pressure situation.

Constant pressure may be an ideal we strive for, but it's not realistic and simply doesn't happen in the real world.

 

[alexmack]

Good to get some other points of view on this chaps. Certainly an interesting one which I realised afterwards was also being discussed on the carp with no lips thread. For fish welfare I always want the best option and am now going to keep a closer eye on those barbless hook holds when I am carp fishing!

I guess the only way to know for certain on the hook hold damage would be to use two rods with one on barbless and one on barbed using the same ross, mainline and rigs and then keep a conscious record of any tearing or hook slippage. For what its worth, I haven't noticed a great deal of slippage in comparison to barbed since changing and am happier that if the worst did happen and I got cut off I would give fish the best chance of shaking the hook.

I do use a rather odd set up as well which I really think helps hook hold damage and makes cut offs almost impossible, 2.5lb TC rods, 25lb graviton braid with a light drag! Can't cast it far but most of my fishing is short range on rivers, canals and stalking from swim to swim.

Sure the debate will continue, tight lines (but not too tight!!)

Alex

 

[pointngo]

Sorry Point,
Can't agree ... by your own arguments above ... the micro-barb seems to be a compromise that has the worst of both worlds - it 'removes' easily (like the barbless) and 'stays put as it can't go backwards' (like the barbed) - given that the barb itself causes damage as it moves in the hold are you saying the micro barb causes less 'cos its a smaller barb?

it's an argument that has been going on for years Greenie so I would only expect some to see it as I do.. it's a personal choice. You could look at micro-barbed hooks like a compromise that has the best of both worlds mate? They are easier to remove than a fully barbed hook and harder to remove than a barbless so the hole size is a compromise but the microbarbed hook stays put better than a barbless so damage caused by hook movement is minimised.

The barb does cause damage "inside the hole" as it were but only laterally, and a microbarb will reduce lateral movement and be small enough to cause minimal damage.

Sam explained the varying pressures perfectly. In the mini-world that is the carp's mouth, where sucking & blowing pressures matter, where the hook point and barb has taken hold small changes in hook pressures do count, even if we have to imagine them rather than see it first hand.

We all see things differently though so I can only put across how I perceive it.. fishing is all about perceptions, everyone has their own based on their experiences which is why it is so diverse.. but also why we can't agree on anything.

 

[pjcoarsefishing]

Good to get some other points of view on this chaps. Certainly an interesting one which I realised afterwards was also being discussed on the carp with no lips thread. For fish welfare I always want the best option and am now going to keep a closer eye on those barbless hook holds when I am carp fishing!

I guess the only way to know for certain on the hook hold damage would be to use two rods with one on barbless and one on barbed using the same ross, mainline and rigs and then keep a conscious record of any tearing or hook slippage. For what its worth, I haven't noticed a great deal of slippage in comparison to barbed since changing and am happier that if the worst did happen and I got cut off I would give fish the best chance of shaking the hook.

I do use a rather odd set up as well which I really think helps hook hold damage and makes cut offs almost impossible, 2.5lb TC rods, 25lb graviton braid with a light drag! Can't cast it far but most of my fishing is short range on rivers, canals and stalking from swim to swim.

Sure the debate will continue, tight lines (but not too tight!!)

Alex

I agree Alex

First I ask myself why would I choose barbed hooks instead of barbless, the answer is so that I don't lose any fish that takes the bait/hook.

Then I ask what would make me choose a micro barb hook instead of the barbless, again the answer has to be so the fish hopefully doesn't get away.

If those are my reasons then what I am saying to myself is, I am going fishing, I want to catch as many as I can and I am not really concerned for the welfare of the fish.

Having seen the damage that a barbed hook can do, not everyone is careful removing them and sometimes they lodge in the side of a mouth, I feel I cannot put this damage ahead of the number of fish I catch.

So I consider the same for micro barb hooks. They are definitely better for the fish than barbed ones but, they can and do damage the fish.

This leaves me to consider a barbless hook, the chance of damaging a fish with the hook is very small, certainly smaller than with the other two hook types. But, I will lose some fish they come off easy, a fish can flip and jump the hook and I will lose it. I came to catch fish not lose them!

I wonder, people say what you caught mate, I tell them, they say do you take them home and eat them, I say no I put them back. They frown and walk away. Why do I put them back, simple, I want a chance for myself and others to be able to catch them. If we took them home to eat there would soon be no fish left in the lakes.

Although a slower process, it is the same with damaging fishes mouths, if we damage them and they die or are destroyed there are less fish to catch. I look at the mashed up face of a fish and think, would I like it if someone made the same mess to my face, no I wouldn't.

So my conclusion is clear, I use barbless hooks all the time. I have put details on my blog many times that I caught this and this and lost 3 fish today. Does it matter if we lose fish that jump the hook? Is it competition to catch as many as we can as fast as we can? For me certainly not. I had a 6-7lb carp recently, full of energy, it took me over half an hour to bank it due to it fighting but, I let it run and then brought it back over and over again. It was caught on 8lb line with 5lb bottom on a 14 barbless hook. To me this is the sport, playing a fish and bring it in subject to its strength and the tackle used.

The argument will no doubt roll on barbed or barbless hooks. There are some who use barbed and micro barbed on fisheries that stipulate barbless hooks only, sadly the owners, bailiffs or wardens don't check but it is their fish stock that is getting damaged so they really should do so.

If a fishery says barbless hooks only, that should be the case.

If a fishery allows barbed or micro barb hooks then it is up to the persons conscience which they use.

I would then ask myself what is more important for the fishery allowing barbed hooks that can deform a fishes mouth, is their priority fish or money or are they just not bothered.

But, as the debate goes on.

I stress these are my thoughts and considerations. I would never use anything else but BARB-LESS hooks.

 

[thecrow]

I agree Alex

First I ask myself why would I choose barbed hooks instead of barbless, the answer is so that I don't lose any fish that takes the bait/hook.

Then I ask what would make me choose a micro barb hook instead of the barbless, again the answer has to be so the fish hopefully doesn't get away.

If those are my reasons then what I am saying to myself is, I am going fishing, I want to catch as many as I can and I am not really concerned for the welfare of the fish.

Having seen the damage that a barbed hook can do, not everyone is careful removing them and sometimes they lodge in the side of a mouth, I feel I cannot put this damage ahead of the number of fish I catch.

So I consider the same for micro barb hooks. They are definitely better for the fish than barbed ones but, they can and do damage the fish.

This leaves me to consider a barbless hook, the chance of damaging a fish with the hook is very small, certainly smaller than with the other two hook types. But, I will lose some fish they come off easy, a fish can flip and jump the hook and I will lose it. I came to catch fish not lose them!

I wonder, people say what you caught mate, I tell them, they say do you take them home and eat them, I say no I put them back. They frown and walk away. Why do I put them back, simple, I want a chance for myself and others to be able to catch them. If we took them home to eat there would soon be no fish left in the lakes.

Although a slower process, it is the same with damaging fishes mouths, if we damage them and they die or are destroyed there are less fish to catch. I look at the mashed up face of a fish and think, would I like it if someone made the same mess to my face, no I wouldn't.

So my conclusion is clear, I use barbless hooks all the time. I have put details on my blog many times that I caught this and this and lost 3 fish today. Does it matter if we lose fish that jump the hook? Is it competition to catch as many as we can as fast as we can? For me certainly not. I had a 6-7lb carp recently, full of energy, it took me over half an hour to bank it due to it fighting but, I let it run and then brought it back over and over again. It was caught on 8lb line with 5lb bottom on a 14 barbless hook. To me this is the sport, playing a fish and bring it in subject to its strength and the tackle used.

The argument will no doubt roll on barbed or barbless hooks. There are some who use barbed and micro barbed on fisheries that stipulate barbless hooks only, sadly the owners, bailiffs or wardens don't check but it is their fish stock that is getting damaged so they really should do so.

If a fishery says barbless hooks only, that should be the case.

If a fishery allows barbed or micro barb hooks then it is up to the persons conscience which they use.

I would then ask myself what is more important for the fishery allowing barbed hooks that can deform a fishes mouth, is their priority fish or money or are they just not bothered.

But, as the debate goes on.

I stress these are my thoughts and considerations. I would never use anything else but BARB-LESS hooks.

Sorry but that is totally wrong, anglers that fish with barbed hooks do not care less for the fish they catch than those that use barbless.

All of the syndicates I have belonged to and these have been well run large waters with very big fish in them had a rule that banned the use of barbless hooks, did the owners of these waters not care about the fish in their waters?

Interestingly most fisheries that ban the use of barbed hooks are of the overstocked hungry commercial type, perhaps the owners should pay a bit more attention to the expertise of some of the anglers that fish their waters. that's not to say that all anglers on commercials don't know how to unhook fish caught on barbed hooks.

 

[symonh2000]

To be honest I have found whilst fishing that there is little difference in the number of lost fish whilst using barbless hooks compared to fully barbed ones.

Personally I am now a barbless convert, the hook may move around in the fishes mouth more, but that is more than compensated by the fact it is easier to unhook on the bank and spends less time out of the water getting stressed.

Barbed hooks can be very difficult to remove on occasion, and if the fish is flapping at the same time things are even worse.

In contrast barbless hooks often simply fall out whilst the fish is in the landing net.

 

[pjcoarsefishing]

Sorry but that is totally wrong, anglers that fish with barbed hooks do not care less for the fish they catch than those that use barbless.

All of the syndicates I have belonged to and these have been well run large waters with very big fish in them had a rule that banned the use of barbless hooks, did the owners of these waters not care about the fish in their waters?

Interestingly most fisheries that ban the use of barbed hooks are of the overstocked hungry commercial type, perhaps the owners should pay a bit more attention to the expertise of some of the anglers that fish their waters. that's not to say that all anglers on commercials don't know how to unhook fish caught on barbed hooks.

Of all the fisheries I have fished, admitted probably only a dozen so far, nearly all are not commercial fisheries. They all request barbless hooks and have made their choice bases on their consideration of what they feel is best for the fish after considering the facts and arguments.

It is an on going argument that will no doubt rumble on. If I get a piece of liver, or similar and push and pull a barbless hook there is little to no damage, if I do 'the same' with a barbed hook there is unrepairable damage.

It is therefore barbless for me.