Club Bailiffs and thier Rights

[markcw]

Mark
Can you explain what powers you have as a private club bailiff to remove an anglers licence?
The only persons or body that has lawful authority to do this is a " Magistrates Court" after a Conviction for a relevent Offence.
What you are admitting to is an illegal act and also theft/ intimidation.
You have the riught to remove a club members permit card and legally, nothing else. not even fishing tackle as you do not hold thge powers of a Fisheries Enforcement Officer ( A Deemed Constable )

It was the club card removed ,not the EA card , I checked both cards , but kept hold of club card when doing rig checks for the obvious reason of not having to try and get it back for any wrong doings.
Read the post again ,I never said I removed fishing tackle .
Where does intimidation come into this . ?

 

[markcw]

Breaking club rules about rigs might enable the club to eject the offender from the club , if that is what the rule provides - but that is all. Any 'removal of licence' can only mean licence in the sense of permission to fish , and clearly not an EA fishing licence .'Endorsements' , whatever they are , can only be some internal club process and not any legal procedure. As said , removing fishing tackle from an 'offender' will create more problems for the person removing it than the tackle's owner.

Lots of clubs do endorsements , one club has a 3 and out rule .
The only licence that got removed was a club licence.
No tackle was removed .

 

[The bad one]

In my club as a "right of being a member of the club," you agree to showing your EA licence to a club bailiff if requested to do so. No show, you're on your way off the water. Likewise the same applies to your Club Card, which if you're breaking club rules the bailiff has the right under club rules to retain the "Club card" and present it to the committee for them to take action for breaking of the club rule(s). It really is that simple even for the hard of understanding.

 

[@Clive]

Breaking club rules about rigs might enable the club to eject the offender from the club , if that is what the rule provides - but that is all. Any 'removal of licence' can only mean licence in the sense of permission to fish , and clearly not an EA fishing licence .'Endorsements' , whatever they are , can only be some internal club process and not any legal procedure. As said , removing fishing tackle from an 'offender' will create more problems for the person removing it than the tackle's owner.

He said: ".....the other copies would go to the committee in the case of licence removal along with membership card......."

That intimates that he seized the licence and membership card.

 

[markcw]

In my club as a "right of being a member of the club," you agree to showing your EA licence to a club bailiff if requested to do so. No show, you're on your way off the water. Likewise the same applies to your Club Card, which if you're breaking club rules the bailiff has the right under club rules to retain the "Club card" and present it to the committee for them to take action for breaking of the club rule(s). It really is that simple even for the hard of understanding.

Thanks , that's what we did .
Rule number one in the club was to carry both EA and club card , even when just visiting the waters . And around the time I was leaving the club , they brought back the rule about having club rules on you , this was to deter those who said they didn't know the rule . Even though on joining the club you had to declare you had read and understood the rules beforehand .

 

[markcw]

He said: ".....the other copies would go to the committee in the case of licence removal along with membership card......."

That intimates that he seized the licence and membership card.

Copies of endorsement forms , re read the post , maybe I should have just kept using the word card instead of licence .

 

[Alan Whitty]

A couple of weeks ago on the stretch of river I fished this week a club bailiff came along checking tickets(since covid,the club have stipulated cards must be on show, to save the bailiff getting too close),he came to an angler,no ticket on show,so he asked to see it and said angler said he'd left it in his car,the bailiff said he would have to get it,the guy said he would,when he had had enough,then I'll have to ask you to leave the fishery the bailiff said,well it ended in a massive row,which in my opinion should have led to the angler losing his card,I mean,we all know we should be carrying our tickets on club waters surely???

 

[nottskev]

A couple of weeks ago on the stretch of river I fished this week a club bailiff came along checking tickets(since covid,the club have stipulated cards must be on show, to save the bailiff getting too close),he came to an angler,no ticket on show,so he asked to see it and said angler said he'd left it in his car,the bailiff said he would have to get it,the guy said he would,when he had had enough,then I'll have to ask you to leave the fishery the bailiff said,well it ended in a massive row,which in my opinion should have led to the angler losing his card,I mean,we all know we should be carrying our tickets on club waters surely???

I've never been in a club that didn't have the rule, produce your book, card, whatever when asked. Hard to understand why someone who'd probably broken two rules - not displaying it and not even carrying it - would prejudice their membership by being arsey about that, but some people will conjure a row out of nothing. You meet some every time you get in the car these days.

 

[The bad one]

A couple of weeks ago on the stretch of river I fished this week a club bailiff came along checking tickets(since covid,the club have stipulated cards must be on show, to save the bailiff getting too close),he came to an angler,no ticket on show,so he asked to see it and said angler said he'd left it in his car,the bailiff said he would have to get it,the guy said he would,when he had had enough,then I'll have to ask you to leave the fishery the bailiff said,well it ended in a massive row,which in my opinion should have led to the angler losing his card,I mean,we all know we should be carrying our tickets on club waters surely???

Alan I had one of those a few years ago twice. The first time I gave him the option go back to his car, uphill 3/4 a mile away and get his Club Card or leave the water! He went and got his card. Second time he got no option, you are packing up and going home mate! I have your name and club number and I'll be reporting you to the committee for further action.

 

[markcw]

Alan I had one of those a few years ago twice. The first time I gave him the option go back to his car, uphill 3/4 a mile away and get his Club Card or leave the water! He went and got his card. Second time he got no option, you are packing up and going home mate! I have your name and club number and I'll be reporting you to the committee for further action.

We had books that we entered names membership number and time and date of check plus water and any notes to be made .
Then we had a download bailiff app after that and we did it online instead also the club had a sign in and out policy ,to check footfall on the waters , we checked the slips when we first arrived , any member not signing in was given the option to go and sign in or go home if they had been there a fair while .

 

[John Aston]

Judging by some of my year books , some clubs exist to cater for rule making obsessives , and have a sideline in selling fishing tickets . Page after page of terribly written, unrealistic, unenforceable and /or unenforced drivel. They often seem to represent decades ' worth of reactive rule making and get clumsier and more absurd each year . In one of my clubs we have introduced a procedure that the rules are reviewed by the committee before every AGM - it keeps them sharp and avoids anachronistic nonsense such as the following old tut -

All fish caught are eligible for weighing with the exception of Lampreys ,Crustaceans , Pike as per Rule. Match Rule and Regulations, not Club matches

Each member shall show the contents of his pannier when requested to do so

Members shall not be allowed to allow their attendant, keeper, water bailiff or other person to fish for them

 

[mikench]

I won’t introduce aspects of criminal law ie intention to permanently deprive as in my experience of 3 clubs, nobody has attempted or threatened to confiscate tackle. Club bailiffs in my experience are pleasant and when asked to get my card I have always happily obliged. Occasionally it is inside my coat packet which I have left in the car because of warm weather. They do a job for the clubs without remuneration ( a free card isn’t worth the trouble imo) and devote their own time in doing so. I salute them all and having seen what they sometimes have to deal with, I don’t envy them. Tigger was a bailiff and whilst you wouldn’t want to argue with him, he was always pleasant and cheerful when checking anglers to see if they had the right to fish. I witnessed his patience being sorely tried on more than one occasion.
Remember angling clubs do not vet their members unlike a golf club and do have some morons. Ignorance was never a valid defence to breaking the law or transgressing the rules.

 

[The bad one]

Remember angling clubs do not vet their members unlike a golf club and do have some morons. Ignorance was never a valid defence to breaking the law or transgressing the rules.

We did Mike when I joined 40 odd years ago. You had to have two sponsors to get you in the club. If you broke the rules of the club not only did you get kicked out of the club, the two people who sponsored you went with you, That rule kept the Richard Heads well in line.
Personally I'd like to see it reintroduced ,but I can't see it happening, Irrespective of how many years wait there is on the waiting list.

 

[mikench]

A good idea Phil. Idiots lose clubs good waters.

 

[Ray Roberts]

I have generally been lucky with the bailiffs that I’ve encountered. Even the one’s with a reputation for being abrupt or miserable I’ve managed to get on with. I suppose much has to do with how you deal with other people. There is some good information to be had if you ask in the right way.

A couple of weeks ago I went pike fishing on a river that was muddy as hell. The water was in the fields the previous week. I was the sole angler on both banks for a good mile and a half. Nevertheless the bailiff sought me out and asked to see my card. I wasn’t hard to find as the only tracks on the bank were; mine, a deer’s and a swan’s. Anyway, the upshot was that after telling him it was about a 120 mile round trip for me, he gave me his telephone number and said to call him the day before a trip and he would let me know the conditions. I thought that this was a nice gesture. Likewise, I’ve had some good info on waters from bailiffs. You do have to be a bit sceptical at times though, as some of them have a black belt in bullshitery


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[The bad one]

I have generally been lucky with the bailiffs that I’ve encountered. Even the one’s with a reputation for being abrupt or miserable I’ve managed to get on with. I suppose much has to do with how you deal with other people. There is some good information to be had if you ask in the right way.

A couple of weeks ago I went pike fishing on a river that was muddy as hell. The water was in the fields the previous week. I was the sole angler on both banks for a good mile and a half. Nevertheless the bailiff sought me out and asked to see my card. I wasn’t hard to find as the only tracks on the bank were; mine, a deer’s and a swan’s. Anyway, the upshot was that after telling him it was about a 120 mile round trip for me, he gave me his telephone number and said to call him the day before a trip and he would let me know the conditions. I thought that this was a nice gesture. Likewise, I’ve had some good info on waters from bailiffs. You do have to be a bit sceptical at times though, as some of them have a black belt in bullshitery


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It's all about the approach you make to the said bailiff(s) P*ss them off and you'll get nowt off them! On more than one occasion I've had members literally demand that I tell them where the best swims are on the length of the river. Usually it involved a walk to the bottom of the length a good mile away and fishing in very shallow water of less than a foot deep.

 

[Alan Whitty]

I,like Mike have always had the attitude that I'm glad a bailiff is checking my ticket,because that means he's checking none members,which in turn leads to the formula 'the more times books are checked,the harder it is to poach'...

 

[Aknib]

Just think...

If common sense existed in every individual...



















Lawyers might not exist.

For any budding, overly enthusiastic lawyer...

There was an 'if' and 'might' in there, nothing was stated as a fact or anything other than a personal opinion which i'm perfectly entitled to whether right or wrong, no individual was harmed and no animal injured

 

[mikench]

Steve Lawyers are a pain. In the US there are so many they have started to use them in vivisection rather that rats. There are 2 very good reasons for this.
1. Lawyers are more plentiful than rats , and

2. you don’t becomes quite as attached to a lawyer.

 

[@Clive]

They don't have fishing clubs in France in the way they do in England. Virtually all river fishing is covered by what is called a Carte de Peche, basically a rod licence. For €105 you can fish any river or public lake and have right of access to the river or lake over farm land. There are some private stretches where people have got cabins or houses and some trout rivers have banks owned by the commune and day tickets are necessary. To make a fishing bank private the owner has to apply to the authorities. If you buy an old mill or property with a river frontage you might end up sharing it with anglers if the land has not been declared private.

There are Guards de Peche who are employed by the Departmental Fisheries Office. They are the equivalent of EA Water Bailiffs but have full police powers and carry firearms. There are also volunteer Guards de Peche who, like Special Constables wear the uniform and have the same powers. They don't carry firearms though which is a good thing as the one local to me is suffering from Parkinson's disease

The downside to this is that there is little maintenance of banks. No tree cutting or accesses being repaired by fishing clubs. As such in a kilometer of river bank you might only find one or two places where you can actually wield a rod. And they might not be where the fish are. Each Department has stretches of river or lakes called Parcours de Peche. Typically these have easy access, defined swims and picnic tables. They are however often located in places for the benefit of access, not suitability for angling. Many of the ones dedicated for night fishing for carp are more suited to chub and barbel. Or trout in some cases. The other thing about them is that they act as a social club for 'resting' anglers. If you fish these places you will usually find people coming to you for a chat. Chatting is a national preoccupation in France and any anglers are seen as fair game for anyone passing by.