What's wrong with boilies? (Market research)

[Bob Hornegold]

Hands Up !!

I use to roll up to 5 tons of Boilies a week, they were made of Human Food grade products, plus good quality eggs ( not cracks ), they included a digest aid for winter use and I caught a lot of fish on them.

Has anyone ever read the ingredients of a Tin of Meat, so loved by many anglers or the ingredients that go into extruded Pellets ?

In the 1970tys I fishing in Kent and later in Hertfordshire on some famous carp waters, but I also fished for other species using boilies.

So Barbel over 17lbs, Chub over 9lbs, Roach over 2lbs, Tench over 11lbs, Bream over 16lbs all were caught by design on Boilies.

Yes there are club and commercial waters that ban boilies and there are badly made boilies using to much preservatives and on some water to many Boilies going in, but would it not be the same if the anglers used the same amount of Meat or Pellet ?

Bob

 

[flightliner]

They are the best "seagull attractor" you could ever wish to use.

 

[robtherake]

Hands Up !!

I use to roll up to 5 tons of Boilies a week, they were made of Human Food grade products, plus good quality eggs ( not cracks ), they included a digest aid for winter use and I caught a lot of fish on them.

Has anyone ever read the ingredients of a Tin of Meat, so loved by many anglers or the ingredients that go into extruded Pellets ?

In the 1970tys I fishing in Kent and later in Hertfordshire on some famous carp waters, but I also fished for other species using boilies.

So Barbel over 17lbs, Chub over 9lbs, Roach over 2lbs, Tench over 11lbs, Bream over 16lbs all were caught by design on Boilies.

Yes there are club and commercial waters that ban boilies and there are badly made boilies using to much preservatives and on some water to many Boilies going in, but would it not be the same if the anglers used the same amount of Meat or Pellet ?

Bob

I read of a commercial venue which became "sick" and was drained to permit the removal of a couple of feet of undigested fat from meat products.uke:

 

[laguna]

I would target tench and carp with them. Shape wise as random as you could make them, I've bought the chops in the past rather than round boilies and it's worked well.

As for flavour I think it would depend on season and species. A corn flavour would be good and if possible a worm or snail flavour for tench , I realise this may drive the price up though. As we know carp eat everything but as most of them have been bred on fishmeal based pellets I'd start with fish flavours, but I've done really well in colder months on skrettings pellets soaked in dare I say it korda almond goo

Size would be determined on stock levels, no point using 20mm baits for 2lb tench etc. I think a good starting point would be 8mm ish

Also hookbaits could be made of the same flavour and mix but maybe more potent then feed so once the fish are feeding in your swim they are drawn to it but it won't stand out as something to be wary of. These could be sold separately or even a small bag inside the say 1kg bags of bait you sold. Just a thought.

If I can think of anything else I'll let you know

Sent from my E6853 using Tapatalk

Chops are certainly an option. Randomness is harder to mass produce but not impossible. Irregular or different sometimes works to an anglers advantage for sure. Any shape within reason can be made.

Goo is a licensed product of South African origin, might work out there (as does TCP anticeptic apparently) but I'm not convinced it works here so well from what I've heard. I'm obviously bias as I prefer only real food additives without the artificial smoke.

There is the age old problem of flavours, not so much what but the authenticity of them. Most anglers are still suaded by the synthetic smell that influences their own nose and buying decision, when in reality they
have no concept of what the fish prefer - apart from Fishmeal, a proven winner! least known is rice and peas, yet together contains all 10 essential amino acids - doesn't sound so appealing to the angler though does it?

Very true regards size. It may be prudent to concentrate on the smaller sizes first and see how it goes, pre-drilled pellets and boilies in 6mm, 8mm. Which leads me to the question of consistency preferred by a majority. Soft hookers or banded, soluble or not so soluble? I realise everyone and the fish have different preferences from time to time.

A separate bag is something I hadn't thought of. Thanks for your suggestions Tom!

I use 10mm tutti frutti boilies for tench in the spring and the summer, I am planning on using boilies this autumn and winter for barbel when the rivers are up and coloured, I'd be happy to test some for you once they are ready for trialing.

Absolutely, thanks for your contribution Swizzle!

At the moment I am easily seduced by the descriptions, colours and flavours of boilies and keen to try anything. I have bought a few small jars of boilies , pop ups, wafters, etc with the same success as the tried and trusted. I have various flavours and usually catch one or two with them all

Yesterday it was soft pellets and a piece of cheese. I reckon as fish will eat anything when in the mood you might as well try Uncle Joes mintballs

A really nice guy in my club , who insists on calling me Steve, is usually already fishing when I get to my favourite lake. We always have a chat and he asks what bait I propose to use. As per the fast show( LP will understand) I usually say" this week I has been using pineapple boilies". The look on his face and the language is wonderful when I catch a fish first cast. I usually give him a few and neither of us catch another !:

Like Rayner I ring the changes every 15 minutes or so if nothing is happening. I will give your spawn a try tomorrow; see how adventurous I am Chris! I will give your bunkers a try but I guess my experiences and success with them will hardly inspire you to mass production

Experience is not a prerequisite Steve (sorry could not resist), you are more than welcome and thanks for your input. You name is on the list Mike! Good luck with the Aqua-SPAWN too. :w

A lot of barbel anglers use boilies at times I do myself, I like them to be fairly small fish proof but not so hard that they could kill a pheasant at 50 yards when fired out of a catapult, a fairly tight mix that leaked attractors slowly is something else I would look for. I like the idea of there being no artificial attractors as it so easy to overload a bait with chemicals.

I am a fan of paste wraps would there be any of that in the range?

Would it be advantageous to state break-down times on the bags Crow?
Paste could be wrapped though I personally like to wrap around cork. Consistency and break-down times can be controlled in production as can levels of flavour. (real extracts food flavours) I've even toyed with the idea of a neutral/natural absorbent letting anglers adding there own, seemingly so many seem intent on using the synthetic stuff. Many already do so with pumped expanders (swim stim) liquids and boilie dips etc.

I have made my own boilies for years now and for the last 5 years or more have made them with a 'no egg' mix which was first published in the 70's by Duncan Kay. It's a bit difficult to get the consistency right for it to roll properly but it does the job well and in smaller sizes it is good for roach and bream as well when being used as a paste.

Laguna sell a range of no-egg, no-boil mixes (pastes and base) which binds and rolls well, the binder of choice is gluten and optionally a drop or two of oil. Its difficult to roll when you add oyster shell for the 'crunch factor' but easy to do by hand. I'm a firm believer in not using eggs as they tend to lock in the flavours, any uncooked egg is a trypsin inhibitor. I like my baits to be soluble and nutritious, boiling denatures the proteins and ruins amino acids but not many care about that. Thanks pete and thanks for the offer of trialling Bunkers I've put your name down mate.

Hands Up !!

I use to roll up to 5 tons of Boilies a week, they were made of Human Food grade products, plus good quality eggs ( not cracks ), they included a digest aid for winter use and I caught a lot of fish on them.

Has anyone ever read the ingredients of a Tin of Meat, so loved by many anglers or the ingredients that go into extruded Pellets ?

In the 1970tys I fishing in Kent and later in Hertfordshire on some famous carp waters, but I also fished for other species using boilies.

So Barbel over 17lbs, Chub over 9lbs, Roach over 2lbs, Tench over 11lbs, Bream over 16lbs all were caught by design on Boilies.

Yes there are club and commercial waters that ban boilies and there are badly made boilies using to much preservatives and on some water to many Boilies going in, but would it not be the same if the anglers used the same amount of Meat or Pellet ?

Bob

I prefer natures own preserving, we've managed to produce some of our stuff carrying a 20 year shelf life.... giving me plenty of time to catch something Bob!
Ps plenty of monsters there mate, who did you roll for remind me please?

The thing about pellets, most of the branded soft hookers are probably okay, exception is I heard someone makes a paste with flavoured sawdust and gelatine.. but the hard ones produced by a hammer mill... boy do they get hot!

 

[thecrow]

Would it be advantageous to state break-down times on the bags Crow?
Paste could be wrapped though I personally like to wrap around cork. Consistency and break-down times can be controlled in production as can levels of flavour. (real extracts food flavours) I've even toyed with the idea of a neutral/natural absorbent letting anglers adding there own, seemingly so many seem intent on using the synthetic stuff. Many already do so with pumped expanders (swim stim) liquids and boilie dips etc.

Breakdown times should imo be different for running and still waters, when I used to make my own baits I achieved this by getting faster breakdown from including more open ingredients although it could make the rolling of them difficult through drying out. Breakdown times on bags would give the angler a choice depending on what he wants from the bait.

I think that a lot of anglers use synthetic smells because that's what is readily available and if it smells good to them it must smell the same to the fish which imo is wrong, fish again just my opinion may be able to detect the base that a synthetic smell is built on and so no matter how something smells to us they could all smell the same to fish.

Allowing anglers to flavour their own bait could imo (lot of imo here ) ruin a good bait with large amounts of synthetics being used, I have never found a natural that could be added in to large a quantity so as to spoil a bait, price and availability have at times ruled that though.

Just like to add that I think Fred Wiltons original idea's and thought on baits has been lost over the years with anglers being persuaded to purchase baits without a thought of nutrician.

 

[sam vimes]

Freezer boilies are a pain to store on the bank and at home. On the bank they either end up mouldy or like bullets. I want decent shelf life without the need for excessive chemical preservatives. Shelf life boilies that are just as effective as their "fresh" variant should be worth aiming for.

Boilies that are solid enough to withstand catapulting, throwing sticks and heavy casting without being rock hard marbles.

Pop ups that are like bullets from the start. Pop ups that don't actually manage to support a hook. Pop ups that don't maintain their bouyancy and integrity for a decent length of time. Not all brands are equal in these respects, some are far better than others. Unfortunately, far too many really don't cut the mustard in at least one aspect.

Boilies that are inherently appealing to fish, of all species, to get a good response without the need for a stupidly expensive pre-baiting campaign, or high levels of previous boilie use on the water. As it stands, I'm less than convinced that any company actually wants to produce such a bait, it's not really in their best interests. From previous experience, the chances of getting instant responses, on waters that have seen little boilie use, is fairly limited. The only places I'd anticipate a rapid response, to a previously unseen boilie, would be on a water with very high stock levels. I can well understand why a general coarse angler, that perhaps buys the odd kilo of boilies once in a blue moon, would get to thinking that boilies are utterly useless. If they are fishing waters that see little boilie use, low stock levels, are using too little, or are using ineffectively, they probably are pretty useless.

I'm not averse to the prospect of boilies being nutritionally balanced and good for growth. I also understand that the obsession with very high protein levels does not necessarily equate to a nutritional balance. I understand that a good nutritional source is likely to be more effective in the longer term However, I'm not that concerned, and I doubt many others are either, I'm out there to catch fish, not just feed them for their long term good.

 

[john step]

I like and look for soft feel shelf life boilies in various sizes. The bigger can be trimmed to odd shapes and two or three 10mm spaced on a hair can be effective.

Soft because I feel the flavour leakage is better.

However Laguna... didn't Berkley have a range of boilie shaped baits marketed as "GULP" range "that are not boiled but made under a completely new way".

If you make hair enabled baits in the natural flavours your paste comes in I feel they would be good catchers. Especially if pastes the same flavour to match were available.

 

[chub_on_the_block]

I have still never used a boilie. Bit like never buying the Sun newspaper. Its just something i would rather not do. Ive used awful halibut pellets that stink out everything though, even though i usually do better with luncheon meat or maggots.

 

[laguna]

Happy to give away a few Kg in the hope that Bunkers will eventually become popular and affordable for the masses. It comes down to the bait makers ability to make a bait that the fish like, least important is to catch the angler (by smell) as some do, or persuade by the complexity of nutrition. Proof is in the pudding as they say....!

Breakdown times should imo be different for running and still waters

Thats the trouble though isn't it? many anglers will use the exact same bait on different types of venues both still and running, any time of year and temperatures without much thought of what the implications are. What usually happens is that many boilies are Manufactured to be less soluble and harder, so as to suit a variety of conditions with longer breakdown times. This ~~~ symbol and this --- has been proposed in our preliminary discussions along with breakdown times (say 1mm per hour) for a given temperature but it then becomes a technical rather than a practical and simple bait solution likely to confuse.

No they do smell different just hard for us to perceive. Our own perception is primitive and different, the fish can differentiate between individual molecules that we perceive as only one or two. But again, it's probably pointless discussing technicalities as we humans don't fully understand. Lets face it; senses apart, most of us are as simple as the fish we intend to catch.

Allowing anglers to flavour their own bait could imo (lot of imo here ) ruin a good bait with large amounts of synthetics being used, I have never found a natural that could be added in to large a quantity so as to spoil a bait, price and availability have at times ruled that though.

Just like to add that I think Fred Wiltons original idea's and thought on baits has been lost over the years with anglers being persuaded to purchase baits without a thought of nutrician.

Only toyed with the idea, it would certainly help drive the price down but the clincher being that the 'flavour' used in the manufacturing stage will help prolong the shelf-life significantly. We're simulating that now even though the concept is less than 4 months old, we expect 5 year+ as a minimum. Not using eggs can make that possible along with the inclusion of SAC juice - our Glycerite extracts!
The HNV bait theory, along with a prolonged baiting campaign (if you can afford it) still works but not so much today as most fisheries now are too heavily stocked with juveniles raised on pellets and anglers baits IMO. Getting carp to switch from naturals on a seldom fished estate lake? best way!
Anyway... I'm from Yorkshire, a Kg of bait lasts me several sessions!

Freezer boilies are a pain to store on the bank and at home. On the bank they either end up mouldy or like bullets. I want decent shelf life without the need for excessive chemical preservatives. Shelf life boilies that are just as effective as their "fresh" variant should be worth aiming for.

Boilies that are solid enough to withstand catapulting, throwing sticks and heavy casting without being rock hard marbles.

Hard (for casting) and pre-drilled but with a high degree of solubility, quickly becoming soft in water - saturated with SAC juice!
The alternative is normal run o' the mill soft and paste like, rock hard insoluble and harder to chew, or rubber! likely to be discarded or quickly blow.

I think Nano/micro beads pop ups are a better prospect than cork powder. Any thoughts on that Sam?

I'm not averse to the prospect of boilies being nutritionally balanced and good for growth. I also understand that the obsession with very high protein levels does not necessarily equate to a nutritional balance. I understand that a good nutritional source is likely to be more effective in the longer term However, I'm not that concerned, and I doubt many others are either, I'm out there to catch fish, not just feed them for their long term good.

Point taken, I've said as much myself. Perfection is unattainable and certainly less important to feed them than to catch more. Giving fish confidence to feed is the first consideration to catching said quarry, then its up to the angler.

I like and look for soft feel shelf life boilies in various sizes. The bigger can be trimmed to odd shapes and two or three 10mm spaced on a hair can be effective.

Soft because I feel the flavour leakage is better.

However Laguna... didn't Berkley have a range of boilie shaped baits marketed as "GULP" range "that are not boiled but made under a completely new way".

If you make hair enabled baits in the natural flavours your paste comes in I feel they would be good catchers. Especially if pastes the same flavour to match were available.

I like the soft feel too john, the trouble is, is that a squishy firm bait is rubbery and locks in flavour and a paste doesn't last as long and though not impossible, is harder to cast. Bunkers will have a hard exterior and matrix but readily dissolves and releases its flavour steadily in all temperatures. Thanks John, I know you like our paste (strawberry was it?) I think our paste is the best money can buy (and cheap), its certainly caught a few fish this season and it has a hell of a shelf-life too. Bunkers... think paste and a hard dissolving soluble pellet > mix the two > and there you have it! or at least one such variation.
I read something about Berkley's process (or speculative opinion), I think they steam theirs instead of boil? Not heard anything since or detail but I can tell you Bunkers isn't steamed or boiled.

COTB, never? Is it the expense or is it because your okay with just using LM and maggots? (both good baits)
Bunkers will be available in both pellet and boilie shapes (round or otherwise) , please let me know if you want to try some!

Many thanks lads, much appreciated.

 

[mikench]

How does your paste compare with, say, the sonubaits fibre paste Chris. I have never had any success with paste( some would say I have never had much success with anything) and thought this might be better. I tried a little last sunday but it was such a bad day all round, i did not give it a fair assessment.

I will try your spawn this week and see if I can catch some nice roach!

 

[chub_on_the_block]

COTB, never? Is it the expense or is it because your okay with just using LM and maggots? (both good baits)

I think i have just found the idea of boilies too artificial and manufactured - with all the marketing and hype associated. Sure i could have made my own - but just never appealed. I did play around with trout pellets, pastes and all sorts in the 70s. I know bread in its forms and most particles are also rather artificial in an aquatic environment, but at least where ponds have ducks that get fed bread there is a link and hempseed probably resembles pea mussels.

I have never pursued carp much. If i had done so and a water demanded the latest boilies/boilie falvourings/amino acid content/named angler sponsorship then I may have been tempted. In general i try to avoid waters where angling pressure is high and there is a turnover of "going baits" that have to be used for best results at any one time.

I have a lot more time for anglers who use or experiment with natural baits - worms, slugs and the like as these are not easy to source reliably and can throw up difficulties of presentation that need to be overcome. Boilies are too much the instant fix for me.

 

[mikench]

.............and they still do not always work out! I am in a phase that i will just have to go through before settling for natural baits. Note to self ; give each one longer that 10 minutes!

 

[sam vimes]

I think Nano/micro beads pop ups are a better prospect than cork powder. Any thoughts on that Sam?

Most pop ups out there don't seem to use either. I'm not overly concerned about how buoyancy is achieved. All that worries me is that buoyancy is adequate in the first place, is maintained for a decent period of time and that the baits aren't absolutely rock hard to achieve it.

 

[mikench]

Chris, I think nano /micro beads are or are about to be banned from use because of pollution issues. Certainly within the cosmetic industry they are and I would think any such ban would have an intended universal application!

 

[thecrow]

In the past I have made pop ups that are fairly soft by including high levels of shrimp meal, not the easiest to roll and require a long drying period but the did maintain their pop upness for a reasonable time.

 

[mikench]

Shrimp meal eh! Is that cheaper than Viagra?

 

[thecrow]

Shrimp meal eh! Is that cheaper than Viagra?

I have a story about Viagra,

Years ago I did a bit of taxi driving for a mates company when he was short of drivers, I was sent to a rather run down area to pick up 2 young I will call them girls in order not to lower the tone of the forum, they were half cut when I picked them up and took great delight in trying to embarrass me I let them get on with it for a while until one of them asked me if I used Viagra, my answer was, not as a rule but if It was you I would need twice the normal dose, the rest of the journey was very quiet and I never got a tip

I liked shrimp meal in baits if I was fishing over weed but it was a very precarious balancing act with how much to put into the bait before they floated.

 

[laguna]

I think i have just found the idea of boilies too artificial and manufactured - with all the marketing and hype associated. Sure i could have made my own - but just never appealed. I did play around with trout pellets, pastes and all sorts in the 70s. I know bread in its forms and most particles are also rather artificial in an aquatic environment, but at least where ponds have ducks that get fed bread there is a link and hempseed probably resembles pea mussels.

I have never pursued carp much. If i had done so and a water demanded the latest boilies/boilie falvourings/amino acid content/named angler sponsorship then I may have been tempted. In general i try to avoid waters where angling pressure is high and there is a turnover of "going baits" that have to be used for best results at any one time.

I have a lot more time for anglers who use or experiment with natural baits - worms, slugs and the like as these are not easy to source reliably and can throw up difficulties of presentation that need to be overcome. Boilies are too much the instant fix for me.

Thats exactly what were about, we need to address those kinds of negatives associated with 'un-natural' ingredients and the persistent hype. The hype of selling best this that and the other, must have, can't do without wonder bait... don't make me laugh! There is no such thing. Anyway, boilies may have a bad press but they are not just a carp bait as you know, originally perhaps but not any more. Other species will take them readily (they eat the excess), but to target say roach or tench why not? Its simply a case of size and shape and knowledge of what they prefer. Example a 6mm pellet shape made with hemp or what have you will catch plenty of decent sized roach, an 8mm strawberry round or otherwise made with real fruit will catch you tench. Most other species will have a go at these too as there would be nothing in them to deter them. I'm still desperately trying to find a bream deterrent though!

Most pop ups out there don't seem to use either. I'm not overly concerned about how buoyancy is achieved. All that worries me is that buoyancy is adequate in the first place, is maintained for a decent period of time and that the baits aren't absolutely rock hard to achieve it.

Yep dried up and hard doesn't really do it for me either.
And cork dust takes on water and loses buoyancy.

Chris, I think nano /micro beads are or are about to be banned from use because of pollution issues. Certainly within the cosmetic industry they are and I would think any such ban would have an intended universal application!

That might be the case Mike but I promise you they are totally benign and safe for the fish and the environment. Made principally of sintered sand! (silica)
The only concern is that of air born hazardous particles at the point of manufacture, produced with an ultrasonic nozzle.

---------- Post added at 18:58 ---------- Previous post was at 18:45 ----------

How does your paste compare with, say, the sonubaits fibre paste Chris. I have never had any success with paste( some would say I have never had much success with anything) and thought this might be better. I tried a little last sunday but it was such a bad day all round, i did not give it a fair assessment.

I will try your spawn this week and see if I can catch some nice roach!

Our paste isn't fibrous at all, its smooth and stiff enough to mould around a pellet or cork ball and can be cast a reasonable distance underhand. Made with 100 percent natural ingredients and not stringy.

Please let me know if you require any help using AS. If you activate them small you will be able to cast them (6-8mm) or add more liquid for bigger sizes for the pole and margins. Tricky to use but a very good product! They hold the world record for their ability hold up to 400x their own weight in liquid. They can be dried out and reused if not eaten and are a legal version of real spawn for salmon and trout for those in the know
Good luck.