Heavier than mainline hooklinks?

cg74

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No waffle from me it was pretty clear to everybody else what I wrote, coz there's only you being pedantic about.

Safe rigs on a river I doubt you've ever fished and probably only see as you wizz past on the M6. You can't without losing plenty...it snags, it moves, and it does that alot on the Ribble, it dumps. Simple!!!!!! Lead deliberately left in the river. Oh dear we're back to whether that's acceptable or not? So is it?

As we are being pedantic the word Topography is incorrect to describe the course and character of a river, the actual correct terminology is Fluvial Morphology. So now you know, you can say what you mean and get it right in future can't you!

The geology is the rock base the river has cut down to over the millennia it's been in existence. All rivers will attempt to erode down to sea level, it's only the type of rock that stops it. And there are 3 classifications that all other rocks fit into Igneous, Metamorphic and Sedimentary. So no a rock is not a bleedin rock, it's one of the 3 types and that dictates its GEOLOGY.

---------- Post added at 01:40 ---------- Previous post was at 00:59 ----------

Philip I too remember the same report. So I've done some basic calculations based on the following.
An angler fishing the Ribble uses an average of lead weight of 2 oz
He loses on av 2 weights per session over the season = 4 oz
X that by 38 sessions = 1 a week over the whole season.
38 x 4 = 152 oz per season 152 / by 16 = 9.5 lbs per season. At bare minimum there are 50 anglers fishing the river on any one day at weekend, far more during the summer, less of course in the depths of winter. So 50 is a reasonable and realist figure taken over the whole season.
50 x 9.5 = 475 lb of pure lead lost by all anglers in a year.
That in my view is not an insignificant amount of lead lost per year.

Realistically that is an underestimation as many of the guys are doing far more sessions than 1 a week, some of the retired guys are on 3-5 days a week.
Sam question for you, "Are you still sure you are standing by your comment?"

You keep waffling on old boy, you seem to have convinced yourself you're right. You're correct in your guess that I've never fished the river Ribble though, so go on enlighten me as to what's so special/unique about the river Ribble, what seperates it so much from the three examples I gave of rivers that I deemed as having similar characteristics.
Does the water flow up hill, hmmm, no! Are the weed beds thicker and stronger than every other river, errrrr, no! Oh and just cos you like talking about stones, are they sharper than any other river, well I'll leave you to answer that one.

For the record topography is not an incorrect term to use when talking about a river, it may not be the best term but it is not incorrect!
Go read the definition for the word if you don't believe me.

And I wrote; "for the purpose of this debate a rock is a rock, and please don't bore me describing the differences between granite, flint or any other bleedin' stone types."
I should've added; unless the Ribbles rocks are sharper, which no doubt they are!
 
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The bad one

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I've already told you above. So I've no need to repeat myself there. You just need to read, digest and think dear chap!

So what's your answer to whether it's acceptable or not to deliberately dump lead in to the river? Do you have an answer?
 

sam vimes

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Sam question for you, "Are you still sure you are standing by your comment?"

Yep, you've got a river that's flowing from a lead mining area. Anglers leads aren't going to make that much difference. However, I do find your made up loss statistics quite interesting. I'm finding it quite difficult to believe that every single angler on the Ribble can afford to be losing around £70 worth of leads per season. Whilst I do understand that they'll generally be Lancastrians, I'd have thought that, with repetition, they'd learn to avoid certain snags and areas if their losses are so high. However, before you ask, no, I haven't fished the Ribble. Good job too, it seems to consist entirely of razor wire, knapped flints and jagged metal. It's a minor miracle that the fish caught don't come out minced.
 

cg74

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I've already told you above. So I've no need to repeat myself there. You just need to read, digest and think dear chap!

So what's your answer to whether it's acceptable or not to deliberately dump lead in to the river? Do you have an answer?

You've spurted endless waffle, you've failed to answer exactly what is soooo unique about the Ribble, especially in relation to the three rivers I mentioned earlier.

Yes it's acceptable to dump weights in a river and until I see evidence to support an argument against, I'm sticking to that, especially in flowing water environment.
But if you were to ask me if it was the best way of approaching a snaggy swim, I'd say no. I'd opt for a rig incorporating a rotten bottom. You wittered some nonsense about getting tangled - which just showed your ignorance.

If you'd asked how a rotten bottom can be used without increasing the likelihood tangling I would've happily answered, but you never!
You were to bothered trying too score points.
 

tigger

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Yep, you've got a river that's flowing from a lead mining area. Anglers leads aren't going to make that much difference. However, I do find your made up loss statistics quite interesting. I'm finding it quite difficult to believe that every single angler on the Ribble can afford to be losing around £70 worth of leads per season. Whilst I do understand that they'll generally be Lancastrians, I'd have thought that, with repetition, they'd learn to avoid certain snags and areas if their losses are so high. However, before you ask, no, I haven't fished the Ribble. Good job too, it seems to consist entirely of razor wire, knapped flints and jagged metal. It's a minor miracle that the fish caught don't come out minced.


I think TBO has underestimated the ammount of leads/feeders lost by anglers....imo there are many more lost.
It's pretty much impossible to avoid snags altogether in the ribble. If you find a seemingly clear spot one day it can all change on your next visit...even tomorrow ! It's not rocket science, it's just a very snaggy river.....simples :w
 

cg74

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Yep, you've got a river that's flowing from a lead mining area. Anglers leads aren't going to make that much difference. However, I do find your made up loss statistics quite interesting. I'm finding it quite difficult to believe that every single angler on the Ribble can afford to be losing around £70 worth of leads per season. Whilst I do understand that they'll generally be Lancastrians, I'd have thought that, with repetition, they'd learn to avoid certain snags and areas if their losses are so high. However, before you ask, no, I haven't fished the Ribble. Good job too, it seems to consist entirely of razor wire, knapped flints and jagged metal. It's a minor miracle that the fish caught don't come out minced.

Sam, get with it, the whole river from source to sea is one giant snag pit and though I'm not sure as what is SOOOOOO very different about the Ribble's snags (apart from their severity) but I know they're worst ever, ever, EVER (I've been told)!!

And don't go thinking you can transfer knowledge gained on other rivers; cos you can't!!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 11:13 ---------- Previous post was at 11:05 ----------

I think TBO has underestimated the ammount of leads/feeders lost by anglers....imo there are many more lost.
It's pretty much impossible to avoid snags altogether in the ribble. If you find a seemingly clear spot one day it can all change on your next visit...even tomorrow ! It's not rocket science, it's just a very snaggy river.....simples :w

So pretty much the same as every spate river then!

Huh, I was expecting something exciting........ Are the rocks sharper than the Lune's?
(please don't disappoint me further)
 

tigger

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So pretty much the same as every spate river then!

Huh, I was expecting something exciting........ Are the rocks sharper than the Lune's?
(please don't disappoint me further)

First off...calm down cg74,FFS your gonna have a heart attack :eek:

I suppose the ribble is pretty much the same as (not every) some other spate rivers. Regarding getting snagged, you would loose weights/feeders the same in the other rivers also :rolleyes:
Now be a good fellow, go and get your blood pressure checked :)

Oop's, just noticed your location...never mind it'll be alright, just take the medicine while they strap you in LOL.
 
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The bad one

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I've told you its the GEOLOGY and FLUVIAL MORPHOLOGY (Correct terms) it runs over and though.
And the millennial deposition it has accrued and is still accruing.
The other rivers whilst being spate rivers run though more gentle geological strata and morphology and don't have the deposition of the Ribble. That's it uniqueness Doh!

As others who actually know it well, will tell you a typical mile stretch can and does consist of riffle and pool effect (all rivers have these). The riffles being consisting of clasts, that's pebbles to you, form 1 mm to a meter seve in size. Then there's the boulders, that's a rock over a metre in size. Pools consisting of Plate Bedrock with trenching gullies where the softer rock, generally sandstone, has been eroded away. These never infill with deposition for very long because they're kept clean by the floods. Doh! the floods move it!
These are unseen in most cases because of the depth of the pool, anything from 10 to 40 ft deep. The barble live in these gullies during daylight hours. So to catch them, many of the daytime anglers fish in the gullies. And one of the reasons why the tackle loss is high. Elsewhere where the riffle drops into a pool the clasts tend to be quite large, 10-20 cm, but are one of the best barbel catching areas, particularly in the summer months.
I'll leave you to workout and answer why?

In these areas you find your lead/feeder drops or gets pulled by the current between two or more of them and get snagged. Again the unwary or unknowing don't know how to deal with this type of snagging and tackle loss tends to be the result.

And as I've said the whole river is like this from source to mouth. None of the rivers you mention are like this in their whole length. Oh and unlike you I do know them very well.
That my detractor is the uniqueness of the Ribble. But of course you'll tell me that's waffle Yeh right, coming from a man who lives in the south, has never fished it, hasn't denied he's only ever seen it for 10 second as he whizzes past at 70+ mph on the M6. As to point scoring, kettle, pot black comes to mind!

Sam I suggest you do a bit more reading about the Lead Mine you quoted.
As to made up figures, pray tell me how they are made up? They are a realistic estimate based on experience of talking to many members over the last 25+ years of fishing and bailiffing the river. Tigger has suggested the figure is an underestimate and that may well be correct, as I acknowledge earlier.
Got say I'm staggered that you think it's of very little impact.
Sometimes anglers can be their own worse enemies :eek:mg:

What I will say is that Jim Hinchley who did post a lot on this site some years ago, did state on here, he dived regularly on a stretch during the close season, where I last saw Tiggar fishing, and would collect all the leads/feeders in the gully most cast into, getting up to a 100 at a time.
 

sam vimes

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Got say I'm staggered that you think it's of very little impact. Sometimes anglers can be their own worse enemies :eek:mg:

Don't blame me, I've never lost so much as a number eight shot in the Ribble.
However, I'm intrigued to know what you think the impact of a bit more lead in the watercourse is going to be. Before you go off on a tangent, I understand lead toxicity. However, we aren't talking about a piped drinking water supply and lead pipes.

On top of that, if lead really is such a huge problem on the Ribble, and losing leads is so commonplace, surely the anglers concerned are being irresponsible using the tactics they are?

Has anyone tried dredging for lead on the Ribble? Those fishing it seem to be losing such vast quantities that it must be a commercially viable proposition by now.
 

chub_on_the_block

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From a toxicity angle, my understanding is that lead is inert as a solid and is only soluble in acid water?. Particulate lead (eg from road run-off) may be different as it may exist in suspension in the water. I am no expert and may be wrong but i thought lumps of lead do not represent a toxicity threat in a river or lake unless ingested by a swan.
 

cg74

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I've told you its the GEOLOGY and FLUVIAL MORPHOLOGY (Correct terms) it runs over and though.
And the millennial deposition it has accrued and is still accruing.
The other rivers whilst being spate rivers run though more gentle geological strata and morphology and don't have the deposition of the Ribble. That's it uniqueness Doh!

As others who actually know it well, will tell you a typical mile stretch can and does consist of riffle and pool effect (all rivers have these). The riffles being consisting of clasts, that's pebbles to you, form 1 mm to a meter seve in size. Then there's the boulders, that's a rock over a metre in size. Pools consisting of Plate Bedrock with trenching gullies where the softer rock, generally sandstone, has been eroded away. These never infill with deposition for very long because they're kept clean by the floods. Doh! the floods move it!
These are unseen in most cases because of the depth of the pool, anything from 10 to 40 ft deep. The barble live in these gullies during daylight hours. So to catch them, many of the daytime anglers fish in the gullies. And one of the reasons why the tackle loss is high. Elsewhere where the riffle drops into a pool the clasts tend to be quite large, 10-20 cm, but are one of the best barbel catching areas, particularly in the summer months.
I'll leave you to workout and answer why?

In these areas you find your lead/feeder drops or gets pulled by the current between two or more of them and get snagged. Again the unwary or unknowing don't know how to deal with this type of snagging and tackle loss tends to be the result.

And as I've said the whole river is like this from source to mouth. None of the rivers you mention are like this in their whole length. Oh and unlike you I do know them very well.
That my detractor is the uniqueness of the Ribble. But of course you'll tell me that's waffle Yeh right, coming from a man who lives in the south, has never fished it, hasn't denied he's only ever seen it for 10 second as he whizzes past at 70+ mph on the M6. As to point scoring, kettle, pot black comes to mind!

Sam I suggest you do a bit more reading about the Lead Mine you quoted.
As to made up figures, pray tell me how they are made up? They are a realistic estimate based on experience of talking to many members over the last 25+ years of fishing and bailiffing the river. Tigger has suggested the figure is an underestimate and that may well be correct, as I acknowledge earlier.
Got say I'm staggered that you think it's of very little impact.
Sometimes anglers can be their own worse enemies :eek:mg:

What I will say is that Jim Hinchley who did post a lot on this site some years ago, did state on here, he dived regularly on a stretch during the close season, where I last saw Tiggar fishing, and would collect all the leads/feeders in the gully most cast into, getting up to a 100 at a time.

I've told you "topography" is a correct term, "GEOLOGY and FLUVIAL MORPHOLOGY" maybe marginally more apt but "topography" is still correct - if you don't like that, best you contact Oxford English Dictionary.
Oh and before you start commenting about my usage of the English language, you might want to sort out yours first; "accruing" - I'm guessing you meant occurring?
Belittlement by way of lines like this; "consisting of clasts, that's pebbles to you" - only works if you get things like the spelling of a four letter word correct - you wrote "form" and I think you meant 'from'?
Out of curiosity what does "seve" mean?

Not to dissimilar, I'd say:
The Eden
http://www.edenfishing.co.uk/images/river_eden_6.jpg
http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/01/79/60/1796073_7cd0f7d8.jpg
http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/02/48/43/2484341_804510c8.jpg

The Lune
http://www.bbc.co.uk/lancashire/content/images/2007/01/08/river_lune470_470x353.jpg
http://www.ravenstonedale.org/activities/images/river_lune1.jpg
http://www.gofishing.co.uk/upload/7392/images/River Lune.jpg

The Annon
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2628/4243989317_e75c153679_z.jpg?zz=1
http://s0.geograph.org.uk/photos/37/82/378212_a0b60262.jpg
http://www.seatrout-fishing.com/sea-trout-annan-1.jpg

Still we have the outstanding issue of; is fishing a fixed rig on the river Ribble safe and I say yes if its set up correctly. Do you agree or disagree and what are your reasons?
 

bennygesserit

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Listen lots of technical stuff here in this thread , and a bit of argy bargy too, but I really don't understand ( maybe I should read the entire thread ) how a stronger hooklink is safer than a hooklink with a lighter BS than the mainline ? I have had breaks but always at the hooklink and often directly at the hook. I always use pretied hooks to nylon , with a loop to loop , a semi fixed ( set loose ) or running rig and the hooklength BS always at least 2 pound less than the mainline.

This is the best advice I think for amateurs , true I only fish commercials , the odd free pool and the canal - I don't , currently fish rivers.
 

cg74

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First off...calm down cg74,FFS your gonna have a heart attack :eek:

I suppose the ribble is pretty much the same as (not every) some other spate rivers. Regarding getting snagged, you would loose weights/feeders the same in the other rivers also :rolleyes:
Now be a good fellow, go and get your blood pressure checked :)

Oop's, just noticed your location...never mind it'll be alright, just take the medicine while they strap you in LOL.

I'm calm, very calm and no pills needed. TBH I'm quite enjoying TBO's posts. Especially all his misplaced assumptions, like thinking because I live in Oxfordshire, I never fish spate rivers.

Nearly forgot, TBO, I've never fished the Ribble, but I've walked it at about 3mph roughly 15 years ago. I have coarse fished the rivers Eden (plus it tribs Eamont, Lowther (trib of a trib) and Petteril), Lune and Annan, I've also worm fished the Dee, Don, Deveron and Ythan - amongst many others
 

tigger

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I'm calm, very calm and no pills needed. TBH I'm quite enjoying TBO's posts. Especially all his misplaced assumptions, like thinking because I live in Oxfordshire, I never fish spate rivers.

Nearly forgot, TBO, I've never fished the Ribble, but I've walked it at about 3mph roughly 15 years ago. I have coarse fished the rivers Eden (plus it tribs Eamont, Lowther (trib of a trib) and Petteril), Lune and Annan, I've also worm fished the Dee, Don, Deveron and Ythan - amongst many others



Hang on...Oxfordshire...I thought you lived in cuckoo land ? :D ;)
 

The bad one

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Ravenstonedale you're having a laugh and being oh so selective in your choice of photos. It the bloody headwaters of the Lune. Less than 5 miles from it source. And all headwaters of the Northern Spate rivers start like that. Dammed it that geology again!

The ones on the Eden, again headwaters and I personally know some of the shots. Got one very similar from Kirby Stephens on my phone as the background.
Strange not that you didn't use any from the mid to lower reaches of all the rivers.

Nice try to dupe people, but very predictable.... rumbled all the same.

Oh and we can all claim to have fished somewhere, google it find a fishing club and the waters it controls, hotel we stayed in, etc, doesn't me we did does it! Do I believe you, Nop!

As to my typos well no body's perfect, as you've shown with the oh so dodgy photos :rolleyes:

Topography - A description of a general area ie landscapes, towns, cities.

No I don't think they are a safe rig on the Ribble. Said that some post ago and gave the reasons why... Keep up old chap!

Chub the westward running spate rivers are acidic pH 6+ because of the moorland peat that drains into them. Eastward running rivers are buffered by the carboniferous limestone they run over.

Sam I think you've answered your own question by stating you understand the toxicity of lead.

---------- Post added at 02:36 ---------- Previous post was at 02:07 ----------

Oh and just to show you we can all put photos up of the headwaters and Forces. This one is Catrigg Force at Stainforth on the Ribble. Yep and I know this one as well, my club has two lengths just above it :)
Google Image Result for http://www.bluestoneimages.com/images/03D-7203_Catrigg_Force_Waterfall_in_Early_Autumn_Stainforth_Ribblesdale_Yorkshire_Dales_UK.jpg
 
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Craig Hunt

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Back to the OP. It is thought that the weakest link in such a rig is the Knotless Knot that you tie your hook on with. Hence using a stronger hooklink than the way you'd normally set up
 

tiinker

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Just an observation but I have caught many fish with hooks in and some with the hook link on mainly in the bigger specied fish with out it bothering them sometimes the hook length being blown out of the gills on a few occasions more than one hook length. I am aware of the tethering possibility but this only seems to happen when there is a intact line from the hook length.
 
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