Eggheads do they know their stuff?

ok i saw this question concerning antiseptics

YATESP222@aol.com (no name given) asks:

Can you tell me the best antiseptic to use on captured fish if they have sores or missing scales to help them fight infection?

GRAHAM, FM EDITOR, ANSWERS:

There are several antiseptics on the market for treating fish but the original and best known is Kryston’s Klin-Ik. Apart from the uses you mention it isn’t a bad idea to dab the area where you removed the hook just to help along the natural healing process. Available from most larger tackle dealers at ?4.90 for a 30ml bottle

graham i am a little cocerned that you would reccommend a malachite based product without qualifications.
malachite can burn the gills of a fish. malachite based products such as klin-ik should not be used inside the mouth cavity. most fisheries managers nowdays suggest products such as orabase for inside the mouth cavity.

The tiny amounts that anglers use will not harm the gills if applied by a cotton swab as directed on the bottles.

An orabse type gel will not wash away as will the likes of Klinik and Remedy and so will give longer term benefit.

Grahams answer is perfectly sound and nowhere on any malachite green based products does it say to not apply to the mouth area.

I think you may be geting this confused with formalin, which, I believe, is a gill irritant.

ill quote you from another web site

"Malachite Green is effective against parasites but may damage gills and\or chemically "burn" tetras and scaleless fish. Malachite Green that is not pure is especially dangerous."

the full article can be seen at

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fishdisho.htm


what we have here is doubt about the suitability of a certain product for a particular usage. the whole point of these discussions is to have better fishcare on the bank

But scaremongering with outdated information is not the way forward.

Malachite is thought to be toxic because it is copper based (mistakenly believed by masses of people because it is green)
It is not and is only an irritant when mixed with formalin, as it is in some aquarium products.

Shall I post loads of links to info supporting my argument as well?

yes please

i have been checking across the net and have been seeing.
1. use malachite in 2 parts per million
2.use 2%
3. it burns gills (see above)
4. it is highly poisonous

now all i have succeeded in doing is confusing the issue more in my mind so im going to leave it alone.

Some information can be found
here.
But even more interesting is if you type 'malachite green gills' into Google it returns 621 results that all recommend it as a treatment to add to tanks to cure diseases.

Do you think that the people who spend thousands of pounds on one koi would risk it's life on a product that could kill it, or do you think that the koi breeders know what they are talking about?

ok all we can do here is attempt to put opposing views and leave people to make up their own mind.
what is not in doubt is that there are legitimate concerns about the usage of malachite in fish care products and as there are these concerns i feel it is best to err on the side of caution.
there is also no doubt that there is no difinitive answer to be found on this subject (no matter how hard i try to prove my point)although the majority or statements back graham's and rik's stance i would still urge caution.

i would suggest that all products containing malachite are not used in or close to the mouth & that for mouth wounds, ie hook holds, orabase should be used.
in closing ill go for one more quote
from
Edward J. Noga, Fish Disease Diagnosis and Treatment, Mosby 1996

"malachite green
sodium chloride.
About malachite green, Noga says that higher temps and lower pHs make it more toxic. It persists in tissue for a long time so repeated treatments causes accumulation to toxic levels. "Toxicity in fish usually presents as respiratory distress, since it is a metabolic respiratory poison. Treated fish may become anorexic"

applicable to the uk?

Roto said
"what is not in doubt is that there are legitimate concerns about the usage of malachite in fish care products "


By who?

The whole aquatic world think it's perfectly safe, it's only you and some blokes article you read in Big Carp that think it isn't.

People recommend the gels because they bond and stay on better, no other reasons, or else there would be bans and it would be pulled off the shelf.

Unless of course you know better than the whole of the koi/aquatic scientific arena......

Roto said, "graham i am a little cocerned that you would reccommend a malachite based product without qualifications."

Unless you're a member of the Flat Earth Society (or are like-minded) you have to take many things in this life at face value, especially when it concerns a subject that you know little or nothing about (such as medications). So if I read on a product instruction sheet that it is recommended for applying to hook penetration areas in a fish's mouth then I feel justified in passing on this information. After all, if I read on my bottle of tablets I bought from the supermarket that they're good for headaches nobody (in their right mind) expects me to analyse and research the product to make sure they're right before I take them.

If, since the product I commented on was launched, doubts have arisen about its useage (and I mean doubts from qualified chemists or fish biologists, not from lay-men like you and I) then it is right to express these doubts.

But you have expressed your concern in such a way that says I was wrong to recommend this product for use in the fish's mouth. Which suggests that the current doubts are widely known and well authenticated, which we know is not the case at all.

So, rather than ask 'Eggheads, do they know their stuff?' I'd like to ask, 'Roto. are you a member of the Flat Earth Society, or just a mishievous little tinker who wants to impress everybody with his vast knowledge of everything from simple bait flavours to complicated medications?'

If so, you've failed.

If I may make an observation on a personal note I'd like to say that you do appear to be well read and well informed, and it's a shame that much of your knowledge is wasted because you have a habit of expressing yourself in such a way that always suggests that everybody except you is a bloody idiot.

If you could address that little tendency in yourself we could possibly get to debate these issues without acrimony.

to be quite honest i think ill take more notice of
Dr. Edward J. Noga Professor of Aquatic Medicine North Carolina State
University College of Veterinary Medicine
who once again stated
"About malachite green, Noga says that higher temps and lower pHs make it more toxic. It persists in tissue for a long time so repeated treatments causes accumulation to toxic levels. "Toxicity in fish usually presents as respiratory distress, since it is a metabolic respiratory poison. Treated fish may become anorexic"

graham you stated
"But you have expressed your concern in such a way that says I was wrong to recommend this product for use in the fish's mouth. Which suggests that the current doubts are widely known and well authenticated, which we know is not the case at all."

i think you should mention that point to professor noga ! is he also talking nonsense?

graham you gave the answer and that is why you were mentioned, however, i am pleased that yourself and rik think that the possible side effects of malachite can be dismissed out of hand.

So, are the current doubts well known and well authenticated?

Definitely not well known in UK angling circles, and I'm not qualified to say whether or not it is well authenticated.

And as for Prof Noga talking nonsense, I wouldn't know, I'm an angler, not a chemist.

I've read through the whole thread again and I can't find anything, anywhere, that suggests that me, Rik, or anyone else is dismissing the possible side effects out of hand.

I think the bottom line of what we're saying is that none of us are qualified to say, one way or the other, that the presence of malachite in Klin-Ik is bad for fish. I'll leave that to the experts in that field and to suppose any of us knows better than them (whichever side they're coming down on) is plain arrogance.

agreed but if there is a possibility of a problem we should take that on board and maybe look for an alternative until conclusive proof is provided either way.
there are differing opinions in science as there are differing opinions of how to fish or what to fish with given a certain situation ; the only way forward is to have open debate and attempt to put various views and leave the individual angler to go with his conscience:having read various points of view.
i prefer to be cautious as there are alternative treatments we can use that do not have (that i am aware of) possible side effects

I agree. And if you'd written that in the first place, and used a less abrasive heading for the thread, we would have been singing from the same hymn sheet long before this.

Roto/Graham,in the interests of clarity(and to spare a mind just home from a twelve-hour night shift);is there a product that you both agree is acceptable for general usage.

I hate to say this but I tend to agree with Rik on this one (don't get cocky Rik it's the last time I'll do this!)

No, I'm not a chemist, no, i don't know who Dr blah, Blah is from whichever university, and no I'm certainly not as well read as Roto is on this matter.

However I do know one or two Kio breeders. If these guys will use a product on their pride and joy, something that they have hand reared for nearly 20 years. Something that can cost as much as a small house - then that's good enough for me. The Kio industry is massive, there are thousands of book, papers and scientific research done into these creatures each year. So, if they continue to use Malachite green based products then so will I. I feel if there was any doubt about its safety then they would not be using it.

Like Graham says, if the doctor tells me to take a certain tablet for my hay fever I don't go to the library first to research that drug, I take him on his word and nip along to the chemist.

Your sentiments Roto are no doubt well founded but I think I'll put myself firmly in the Kio breeders camp on this one !

Phil, as far as I'm concerned Klin-Ik is acceptable. What Rik and Gary have said about koi breeders is plain old common sense, which beats any psuedo-scientific argument every time.

for inside the mouth i think we both agree that orabase is fine (watch this space!!)
gary what u say is ok for u but not for me.
one if the most important aspects of understanding anything is to ask the question why? when applied to fishing i do my research and give my opinion. i may not be the most tactful person around but i have the best interests of the sport at heart when considering subjects such as this one.
i also feel that there are many people in all aspects of life that just blindly follow without attempting to understand why they follow.

pseudo scientific graham?
i trust you can back that up?

Pseudo means fake or simulated.

So what I said was ?plain old common sense beats any fake or simulated scientific argument every time.?

With what do I need to back it up? Isn?t it obvious that that is a sensible, factual statement?