Eggheads do they know their stuff?

[Paul Williams]

I keep tropicals.....some of them very small and delicate......i have just read the ingriedients on a white spot treatment that was purchased from a very knowledgable shop on thier recommendation, the product is put into the water and turns it blue/green it is then obviously passed through the fishes gills....the main "active" ingredient is Malachite green.

 

[Steve Clements]

Stuart, the first and only time I bought Klinic, it came with a separate pack of cotton buds.about 6 I believe.Maybe the new stuff has the padded top or whatever, but I'll repeat myself and say I only use bonjela inside the mouth,as you know it's a gel and easily applied with fingertips.
I recently treated a pike that looked like it had been struck by a boat such were the abrasions on its back and I'll be damned if I'm going to mince about with a pad of cotton wool and a liquid that could easily wash off as soon as the fish is returned to the water.
Each to their own, both sides are quoting various experts but if it's commonly expected AND accepted to use human grade foodstuffs for bait then why not medecines in this instance?
And what is that comment about 'murdering bastard' all about?Pretty throwaway aint it? and what would you add IF malachite green WAS proven to be detrimental,it's caused controversy in the states regarding trout farms and while individual fish are'nt worth the same as koi, the financial losses are going to be greater potentially.
It's a valid point here, dont knock as any accusation of scare-mongering is of limited value if we are to concern ourselves with fish welfare.Each to their own and possess an open mind..theres nothing wrong with it!!
Good luck!
Steve.

 

[Rodney Wrestt]

Roto,
You asked "Eggheads do they know their stuff?", well I would like to ask if you know what you are talking about. Do you have any first hand experience of using these chemicals for the treatment of fish? or have you seen any fish mortalities or damamge to gill rakers or water pollution which can be attributed to the products Graham advised upon. You are not taking the product and discussing it or the concentration of it or the amount used....but one of it's component ingredients and moveing the goalpost on your argument It's easy to do a google search and find a paper by any number of "qualified" members of varying distinction about any subject that springs to mind, and some will be for and others equally convincing against but the best way of qualifying an insinuation is by experience, either taking part or observing the administering of the product and the amounts used along with taking water samples, checking ph levels, nitrite and nitrate levels, disolved oxygen levels, watching the fish for irratic behaviour consistant with distress and monitering them regularly throughout the products use. As I and others have stated we have used these products in the treatment of fish in controlled environments and have found it to do as was expected, I have also used Klin-Ik and not observed any problems. What do you use on any wounds or sores on fish you catch, is it a product with no papers produced by university grads or profesors or has no one thought to test it enough for ill effects on fish.

 

[Roto Fryer]

rodney read my posts properly and then tell us about your tests in a controlled environment as i am sure we all wish we could have conclusive proof either way.

you deny that some people more qualified than i ever will be/and perhaps you too think that there is a problem with malachite?
as i have clearly stated there MAY be problems and as there MAY be problems i use an alternative.
you will also notice that i ask questions too. not one of you has answered any of my questions instead all go on using anecdote
to attempt to prove your point.forgive me if i ignore your words in favour of people more qualified

 

[Paul Williams]

How more qualified do you want than a whole industry?......i honestly believe you are over reacting on this one Roto.

 

[Paul Williams]

For what it's worth though i'll add my two penarth!.......i personally believe we can go OTT on all this, sensibly gear, sensible handling and 99% of fish will be fine without any of us playing at doctors!!!!!

 

[Andrew Thomas]

Roto, you mention that Orabase is the stuff to use inside the mouth of a fish. What is the scientific basis for this statement?

It's difficult enough to apply this inside the mouth of a human being ( for which it was designed ) let alone a fish. Humans require dosage 2-4 times daily for up to 5 days.

Bonjela is definitely one to avoid. It's basically aspirin in suspension and hence acidic. It can cause nasty ulceration in humans.

 

[Roto Fryer]

i took my advice on using orabase from ian welch who is head balif on rmc waters.i suggest you ask him as whatever
i say is obviously too contraversal for most of you!

paul most of the coarse fishing industry in this country is un qualified.

why is fish welfare ott? if we fished for food it would be irrelevant but we fish for pleasure and the pleasure the fish gives us deserves respect.if some of us care more than others what s wrong with that?
we show we care by questioning not following blindly.

 

[Rodney Wrestt]

Roto,
You should read MY posts properly,I said that Malachite & Formalin are dangerous but not in the context Graham used in the FM problem page. Exactly how qualified do you think someone should be to offer an opinion to a thread you post, isn't personal experience enough for you? perhapse I should change my profile to Dr.Rodney Wrestt before offering to enter a discussion with you as you must move in higher circles than us average folks what jus got 'lectrisity. I don't pretend to be an expert but I have segregated fish into hospital tanks (controlled environment)because they had bacterial infections which were treated succesfully with Formalin and I've also succesfully treated fish with whitespot with Malachite green. That's my personal proven test cases (live fish after administering treatment and previously described water and stock checks)what's yours? I think I've given you a fair reply and tried to answer your questions (not droped a link and said go read someone elses argument). So in closing if my lack of qualifications and letters after my name offend you so much then please do " ignore your words in favour of people more qualified"

 

[Paul Williams]

Roto,
i was not talking about the "coarse fishing" industy but a multi national institution far bigger than fishing....fish keeping! and also personal experience from recaptures..........at the end of the day your source of imfo is no more qualified than the rest of us.

 

[Mike Lee]

I've only read pages 4 & 5 so I might have missed something - apologies if my laziness has let me down...
Klinik is marketed by Kryston. I've got the highest praise for all Kryston products and they've never let me down. Why would Kryston put their (his) reputation at risk?
I use Klinik. I put a couple of drops here and there as and when needed.
I use Klinik because I care passionately for the wellbeing of the (few) fish I see on the bank. You guys obviously feel the same way - strongly.
If you have doubts, don't use anything.
If you don't have doubts, follow the instructions.
Ignorance on the behalf of inexperienced anglers and poor rig design will, in my opinion, prove to be more harmful to heavily stocked fisheries than a few drops of klinik or a blob of Bonjela ever will.

 

[Roto Fryer]

maybe you are right mike.
well yes you are right, however,i do have a vested interest in making sure no further harm comes to my own fish.
i have in front of me a bottle of solar remedy. not klinik i know but aimed at the same market.
it says in small letters on the back
"note take care not to squeeze remedy into fish's, throat , eyes or gills" this is clearly a warning about possible adverse effects.
i will assume for the sake of argument that klinic and remedy are similar compounds ( does anyone know different?)& in this case the question would be why is there a warning on one and not the other? (is there a warning on klinik i dont have one to hand but from previous replies there appears not to be)
the term squeeze is also rather wooly, however, the instructions say " squeeze a small ammount of remedy onto the applicator provided (is this the small nozzle on the top?)and smear on the affected area(s)"
i dont use bonjela but i do use orabase.

 

[Mike Lee]

Nah, there's no warning like that on Klinik Roto. I've yet to see sores down carp throats, in eyes or under the gill rakers so I haven't put any there.
I've seen a few with sore areas after the exertions of spawning which i have treated with a few drops of the aforementioned liquid.
I guess the message I am trying to get across is twofold.
You all obviously care a great deal for the fish (much cudos to you all) and common sense, as usual, should prevail

 

[Steve Clements]

I have no doubts on the integrity of Kryston
just for the record.
Tell you what, all this hit and miss bollocks is doing my crust in(as Steve Marriot said), it's no good at all, I shall go to the chemist and see if bonjela is harmful and if so what are the alternatives, then I shall allow everyone to benefit from the munificence of my understanding(huh?).
I shall re-iterate: if it's good enough for humans it's good enough for a bloody fish....is that so impossible to understand?

 

[Carp Angler]

I think that the two opposing camps are so entrenched that no common ground, except for the perceived benefit of the fish, would be attainable.

 

[Andrew Thomas]

Would you use a medicament made for fish on yourself ?

I think not.

I repeat, bonjela should not be used on humans, let alone fish.

And I doubt whether any statistically significant evidence, such as double blind trials, exists for any of the available products, whether made for humans (eg Orabase ) or fish (eg klinic ).

Nature is best left undisturbed.

 

[Roto Fryer]

something from the university of florida

"Fish which are not intended for human consumption can also be treated with the chemicals described above for food fish. Copper sulfate or potassium permanganate work well in pools, whereas formalin or salt may be easier to use in smaller volumes of water.
Malachite green is another chemical which can be used to treat ornamental fish that are housed indoors. This chemical should NEVER be used to treat food fish. Not only is this illegal and unethical, but it is totally unnecessary. The chemicals listed above (copper sulfate, potassium permanganate, formalin, and salt) are all excellent treatments for "Ich". Malachite green is mentioned for the sake of completion, but is not recommended by the authors. The chemical is hazardous to handle- it is known to cause cancer, mutations, and is harmful to fetuses. Gloves and a protective mask should always be worn when handling the concentrated powder. Pregnant personnel should NEVER handle this chemical. Despite its toxicity, it is commonly used to control parasitic protozoans on ornamental fish and is quite effective when used at concentrations of 0.05 to 0.10 mg/L as an indefinite bath. This chemical is extremely harsh on fish, particularly on gill tissue, so be careful not to overdose the fish. Malachite green can also be combined with formalin (0.2 mg/L malachite green mixed with 25 mg/L formalin) to treat external protozoan diseases. The two chemicals work well together and are quite effective. Malachite green can be very toxic to scaleless fish and should be avoided on these species."


http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/BODY_FA006

 

[GrahamM]

"Malachite green ............. is commonly used to control parasitic protozoans on ornamental fish and is quite effective when used at concentrations of 0.05 to 0.10 mg/L as an indefinite bath. This chemical is extremely harsh on fish, particularly on gill tissue, so be careful not to overdose the fish."

So, in other words, if used as recommended for Klin-Ik, ie, an indefinite bath (a quick swab with a cotton bud) it is effective unless used on the gills and an overdose is not administered.

Exactly like all medications then - use as prescribed; do not use in sensitive areas; and don't use more than the recommended dose.

 

[Roto Fryer]

graham
does this sentence alone make you even think one little bit?

"Malachite green is mentioned for the sake of completion, but is not recommended by the authors. The chemical is hazardous to handle- it is known to cause cancer, mutations, and is harmful to fetuses. "

this is a university research department talking here backed up by the US government.
what we are not talking about is anacedote.

we saw earlier someone talking about using malachite green for the treatment of his aquarium fish (white spot). i suggest very strongly that he reads this article as it may have a bearing on the future treatment of his fish

 

[Carp Angler]

Is everyone as exasperated about Roto's pig headed inability to see other peoples side of the argument as I am?

People realised that you cannot argue your own case apart from with other peoples obscure data the likes of which you keep quoting, which incidently only make up about 1% of available info.

One person argues that it is dangerous, ninety-nine people recommend its usage.

You still persist in quoting from the one percent, nobody is going to bore the rest of the forum readers by quoting the other ninety-nine.

You have your views Roto, others have theirs, be brave enough to agree to disagree on this occasion and just leave it to rest.