Beavers!

[nottskev]

But possibly not more than alcohol.

Where will this craving to introduce long extinct (in the UK) animals? the world has changed so much since beaver went extinct so would it be fair on the animal to introduce them into such a crowded place as the UK?

True, they'd be wondering where all the carp came from.

Public safety, too. Where I live, there are peregrine falcons nesting in town! On a University building, just over from Cineworld and Wagamama. It’s madness. They are picking off shoppers at will and no-one is safe.

 

[thecrow]

They are picking off shoppers at will and no-one is safe.

Only if they are dressed in a pigeon suit.

 

[swizzle]

I'm neither for nor against as I don't know enough about the subject to have an opinion. Did anyone see the article about the reintroduction of wolves to Yellowstone national park? Not that I'm saying the reintroduction of beavers is similar, it's interesting nonetheless. Link below if anyone is interested.

YouTube

 

[markcw]

Beavers killed more people than the Black Death. Fact.

Were they the Bald ones Kev ?:wh

 

[john step]

I saw that snippet on the box. I wondered what happens to any migratory trout or salmon when they reach the dam and cannot get further upstream to breed?

 

[no-one in particular]

Before we have a thread based on the cartoon beaver - felling forests like a demented lumberjack etc - it's interesting to look at the results on the first page if you google "Impact of beavers on the environment". From water management to water quality via local diversity, there's not much not to like.

Then check the first page of results for "Impact of carp on the environment".

Just saying, before we start grabbing the pitchforks and loading the shotguns.

Ok, I had a brief look and looked at some of it, not much more than what was said on the program except in more detail of course, improve water quality, benefit to other animals, improve the water table and so on and as I thought no mention of any downsides because its mainly one sided. Funny how they always tell you which creatures will benefit from cutting trees down, never tell you how many habitats it destroys for other creatures, how a dam will benefit this and that and NOT how it wont benefit this and that-What about, treecreepers, wood peckers, thousands of caterpillars, the birds that feed on them, brown crayfish, minnows, barbel, salmon, sea trout. Never tell you that, funny that.

And no one has answered my question, what happens when these move onto your nice club fishery, because they WILL; and your not allowed to touch them, they start cutting down all your nice trees, ruining swims, leaving whole trees in the water because they like to do that - and building dams where you don't want them and what if your not allowed to fish there anymore because they will be heavily protected. Is anyone anticipating this and asking what legislation will be in place!

Or will we be trying to close the door after the horse has bolted again and in the meantime just bury our heads and twiddle our thumbs! you have to think ahead!

 

[thecrow]

improve water quality,

I don't understand how on earth the introduction of beaver can improve water quality, have there dams got filters in them that remove all the unseen pollution in our rivers? PR rubbish.

the ONLY way these things should be reintroduced is if they are unable to breed but imo that would be unacceptable to those that would see them reintroduced, any reintroduction should be on a fenced water to avoid any "mishaps" of them escaping, once they are out there without them being neutered control is lost.

 

[nottskev]

Never tell you that, funny that.

/QUOTE]

More beaver conspiracy theory! Why not just google the OTHER side, too, as I do for any search, and search around to get a rounded view...... In my original post, my first comment was that the picture is mixed, and not the cartoonish image of tree-felling, flood-creating pests and I'm assuming anyone else will discover that. Why force the issue into this "They're hiding the truth from us" business? All the information is there to be seen, and no need for paranoia. The image of a world over-run by beavers is, frankly, comical.

Just to move out of the world of science fiction - Revenge of the Killer Beavers - there have been long-term scientific studies of the impact of beaver tree-felling on waterside tree. Beavers will only fell/eat some species of tree, so one effect is to decrease the amount of some tree species and increase others. Cut down trees re-grow, and, interestingly , when they do they produce higher amounts of chemicals which deter beavers by being toxic to them, so are protected from further damage. All this is limited to a narrow waterside corridor, and the places where beavers live are of course, not a tree-less wilderness with poor little birds lost for a home.

Having spent half an hour reading about what beavers do to trees, I'd trust them more than I'd trust the EA with the bankside trees on my local rivers, having seen what each can do.

As to their possible impact on commercials...... I've seen a few that would only benefit from a stocking of beavers

 

[nottskev]

I don't understand how on earth the introduction of beaver can improve water quality, have there dams got filters in them that remove all the unseen pollution in our rivers? PR rubbish.

Have you actually read up on it? Google How do Beavers Improve Water Quality. You'll find your sarcastic question was...absolutely right. The ponds upstream of dams become silt traps which do indeed filter the water, reducing particulates, acidic and agricultural run-offs and nitrogen from the water downstream.

If we just say any information that questions our case is just PR, we'll never get anywhere discussing things.

 

[thecrow]

Why not just google the OTHER side,

Is there another side Kev? lots of reports/studies to be found on google fail to tell the reader who paid for the studies to be done, as beaver are not in the UK in any numbers the reports will be from none UK countries with what may be different indigenous animals/ numbers of animals, and different environment.

Will beaver fight with otter for territory?

 

[thecrow]

I don't understand how on earth the introduction of beaver can improve water quality, have there dams got filters in them that remove all the unseen pollution in our rivers? PR rubbish.

Have you actually read up on it? Google How do Beavers Improve Water Quality. You'll find your sarcastic question was...absolutely right. The ponds upstream of dams become silt traps which do indeed filter the water, reducing particulates, acidic and agricultural run-offs and nitrogen from the water downstream.

If we just say any information that questions our case is just PR, we'll never get anywhere discussing things.

It wasn't a sarcastic question Kev it was a serious one, are you saying that beaver dams can remove things such as the contraceptive pill that abounds in our rivers? if they can i am all for them but i doubt that they can.

 

[thecrow]

I googled " impact of beavers on rivers" this was at the top.

Impact of Beaver Dams Wider Than Thought. A busy beaver's dam work is felt downstream in a major way, a new study suggests. ... Instead of flowing down the center of a valley, dammed water infiltrates river banks and flows underground toward the sides of the valley.

This (if the link can be seen) is from google

watershed.web.unc.edu/the-coharie-river/beaver-impacts/

And this

The most significant potential negative impact of beavers on fish populations is that their dam complexes may have negative effects on fish migration and dispersal. They may also impact upon spawning gravels and water temperature. ... Qualitative and quantitative effects of reintroduced beavers on stream fish.

Lots of negatives to be found.

 

[nottskev]

It wasn't a sarcastic question Kev it was a serious one, are you saying that beaver dams can remove things such as the contraceptive pill that abounds in our rivers? if they can i am all for them but i doubt that they can.

Did I mention contraceptives? Have you looked at any of the studies I referred to?

Replies that go "Are you saying...." and then say something completely other than what you said seem like ways to avoid acknowledging a valid point, and moving the goalposts. Had enough of that with the recent carp thread.

The re-introduction of the beaver (in limited, controlled trials.....ah but who's paying for these trials..) may be a gamble.

But I'll leave the last word to Elvis: Beaver, Las Vegas.

 

[thecrow]

Did I mention contraceptives?

No you didn't, unseen pollution is what i posted and as far as i know the contraceptive pill pollution cant be seen in our waters so i haven't moved the goalpost Kev or avoided anything.

I have googled "impact of beavers on rivers" most of what i have read contain negatives some are all negatives some are serious negatives that considering the state our rivers are in imo should not be visited on our rivers.

 

[thecrow]

I would not be against a strictly controlled trial but it would have to be carried out by people that start with a completely open mind and i don't think that's possible, invariably those carrying out any trial of this type avoid seeing the negative impacts that the trial may show up due to wanting the trial to succeed.

 

[no-one in particular]

Never tell you that, funny that.

/QUOTE]

More beaver conspiracy theory! Why not just google the OTHER side, too, as I do for any search, and search around to get a rounded view...... In my original post, my first comment was that the picture is mixed, and not the cartoonish image of tree-felling, flood-creating pests and I'm assuming anyone else will discover that. Why force the issue into this "They're hiding the truth from us" business? All the information is there to be seen, and no need for paranoia. The image of a world over-run by beavers is, frankly, comical.

Just to move out of the world of science fiction - Revenge of the Killer Beavers - there have been long-term scientific studies of the impact of beaver tree-felling on waterside tree. Beavers will only fell/eat some species of tree, so one effect is to decrease the amount of some tree species and increase others. Cut down trees re-grow, and, interestingly , when they do they produce higher amounts of chemicals which deter beavers by being toxic to them, so are protected from further damage. All this is limited to a narrow waterside corridor, and the places where beavers live are of course, not a tree-less wilderness with poor little birds lost for a home.

Having spent half an hour reading about what beavers do to trees, I'd trust them more than I'd trust the EA with the bankside trees on my local rivers, having seen what each can do.

As to their possible impact on commercials...... I've seen a few that would only benefit from a stocking of beavers

Thats all very well but I live in the real world-
You still haven't answered my question as no one else has, probably because no one knows.
Whats going to happen when these move onto your nice club water, are you going to be able to remove trees they dropped in the water, clear swims that have been blocked by them, just wait years for the trees they felled to regrow, remove their dam material when its inconvenient, be allowed to fish within 50,100/500 yards of them, remove the animals by license which if possible no one will ever be granted one because the criteria will be impossible.

 

[no-one in particular]

I would not be against a strictly controlled trial but it would have to be carried out by people that start with a completely open mind and i don't think that's possible, invariably those carrying out any trial of this type avoid seeing the negative impacts that the trial may show up due to wanting the trial to succeed.

The bloke in question wanted beavers, he approach some well known organizations to back him to give his project validity to help him get granted a license, which of course they did as bio-diversity is the big rage (and an excuse for anything. They are fenced up at the moment but the aim is to release them. One mans selfish project that wont be a fair trial with so many bio diversity advocates on the case. And that he and his land might personally like and benefit because he can control where and what they do and I am sure they will give a very long one sided report on how his land and flora and fauna has benefit under the particular circumstances of his situation; that's not going to be the case once they are released, no one else is going to be able to choose re the above and not just fishery's.
They will spread and problems are coming with it and I think it will be lump it!

 

[no-one in particular]

Still no answer then to my main question, not surprised because no ones got one. In the real world once the convoluted science, the we must have another non native animal and the twee is done with the reality is we are going to have a large destructive animal to deal with in an overcrowded small island with enough problems already. Farmers with managed drainage, fishery managers and owners of every sort, private landscaped owners and more are going to have a problem to deal with it and no legislation to help them; this will be their real world reality. Because I bet that is not in any internet report or in any report going forward from this project in Devon because the fools don't want it or have to deal with it or want you to think about it because its will not be their problem. It will just be another problem for future Governments and all the people I mentioned to deal with; the irresponsibility of it is beyond me.
Over and out.

 

[nottskev]

Still no answer then to my main question, not surprised because no ones got one. In the real world once the convoluted science, the we must have another non native animal and the twee is done with the reality is we are going to have a large destructive animal to deal with in an overcrowded small island with enough problems already. Farmers with managed drainage, fishery managers and owners of every sort, private landscaped owners and more are going to have a problem to deal with it and no legislation to help them; this will be their real world reality. Because I bet that is not in any internet report or in any report going forward from this project in Devon because the fools don't want it or have to deal with it or want you to think about it because its will not be their problem. It will just be another problem for future Governments and all the people I mentioned to deal with; the irresponsibility of it is beyond me.
Over and out.

I'd answer but it's too risky. The beavers have taken over the internet.

 

[thecrow]

I read this on wiki, i have copied the whole thing as i don't know if a link would appear on here although they do on other forums?








A North American beaver
A beaver attack is an attack on a human or domestic pet by a beaver. Beaver attacks are relatively uncommon but are becoming more frequently reported, because it is now more common for humans to enter and disturb the natural habitat of these animals.

Beavers have been known to be extremely aggressive in defending their territory against perceived encroachment.[1] They may attack humans when suffering from rabies,[2] and "can also become disoriented during the daytime and attack out of fear".[3] Attacks on land and in water have been recorded for both Eurasian beavers and North American beavers. The trademark sharp front teeth of both species pose a particular danger, as they are long enough to pass through limbs and cause significant bleeding.[4]

At least one beaver attack on a human is known to have been fatal: a 60-year-old fisherman in Belarus died in 2013 after a beaver bit open an artery in his leg.[3] The incident was described by the media as "the latest in a series of beaver attacks on humans in the country", where a burgeoning beaver population has led to increased aggressive interactions with people.[3] However, others criticized the victim, noting that he likely provoked the attack when he grabbed the beaver in an effort to take a photo with it.[5]

Non-fatal attacks on humans have included: an attack on a saltwater snorkeler off the coast of Nova Scotia, which was unusual given that beavers are usually limited to fresh water;[4] the mauling of an elderly woman in Virginia by a rabid beaver;[2] an attack on a Boy Scout leader in Pennsylvania, after which members of the Scout troop killed the rabid animal by stoning;[6] and an attack on a man swimming in Dobra River, Croatia.[7]

Beaver attacks can also be fatal for domestic animals. A dog died during surgery after being bitten by a beaver in 2010 at University Lake in Alaska, where a number of unprovoked attacks against pets were recorded.[8] A husky was killed by a beaver attack in Alberta, which has also had several non-fatal attacks.[9]