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I'm pretty sure it isn't Dave, if it was a pin and bush then it would be the more expensive of the okuma range due to the work involved and it is the lowest priced centrepin they have ever made
Centrepin reels
- Thread starter steve2
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I'm pretty sure it isn't Dave, if it was a pin and bush then it would be the more expensive of the okuma range due to the work involved and it is the lowest priced centrepin they have ever made
steve2
Well-known member
"Stillwater' is just a brand name like everything these reels are produced in China. Most probably from the same factories as most of our tackle and like all the other tackle is given a new brand name.
It wouldn’t be the first time that tackle as been rebranded and sold as if another maker.
It wouldn’t be the first time that tackle as been rebranded and sold as if another maker.
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Even if the reels are made in the same factory (which we don't know) they won't be made to the same standard or with as good materials.
They're a cheap'o reel made to fill a niche in the price market.
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Keith M
Well-known member
And probably a good enough reel for someone who doesn't really want to spend as much as others do on a pin; but unless I had used one of the reels myself and found it to be really good I would much prefer to buy an already known good pin for trotting such as a Sheffield or an Aventa Pro which are both common workhorses for many of us who regularly trot using pins..
It would be nice if someone who we know on here did a comparison for anglers on here who are thinking of getting a pin.
Keith
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Exactly Keith, same goes for rods, fixed spools etc etc...as I said earlier "you get what you pay for" the majority of the time.
People only ever seem to rave on aout cheap pins, what about cheap fixed spool reels?....maybe it's because they're boring and they'd get little response lol.
steve2
Well-known member
Do you get what you pay for or are you just buying into the idea that it's more expensive therefore it must be better.
I might be the odd one out here but my Shakespeare FS reels to me are as good as my Shimanos.
I might be the odd one out here but my Shakespeare FS reels to me are as good as my Shimanos.
Alan Tyler
Well-known member
Well, if I ever come across a cheap, modern fixed-spool reel with a genuine Right-Hand Wind version and decent bait runner function, line-friendly casting clip and long spool, I, for one, will rave loud and long; you may depend upon it.
---------- Post added at 17:14 ---------- Previous post was at 16:56 ----------
As to cloning/copying/rebadgeing, How many different "makers" names appeared on J.W. Young's reels? I don't think they made them to lower standards because they were going out badged as Sealey, Milward or Allcock... I think we'd have heard the grumbling by now.
So, it is important to find out if it is a re-badge or a copy, and only the trade or people who have bought one of each can really say.
Not that copies are always duff, mind - I have a Suzuki 3S guitar which was so similar to a Martin (and MUCH cheaper) that Martin (who can afford very good lawyers) threatened to sue, and Suzuki gave up on guitar-making. A few people who own both have said that if the house was burning down, they'd grab the Suzuki...
thecrow
Well-known member
Despite all the warnings on here about buying a cheaper centrepin (TFG Classic) and how the line would go down the gap between the spool and the backplate it has never happened to me and I don't think its because I am lucky.
Lots of snobbery surrounds CPs and if anyone wants to buy expensive ones and they can afford them and more importantly they will do the job required of them good luck to them.
As an inexperienced CP user but an angler of 60 years my advice would be get what you need to do the job you want it for if it can be had fairly cheap great if you really have to pay more then that's the time for you to decide if its worth it.
---------- Post added at 18:30 ---------- Previous post was at 18:20 ----------
Easily achieved with a small tweek of the CNC that produces them
---------- Post added at 18:31 ---------- Previous post was at 18:30 ----------
Ah but could you tell stork from butter
Lots of snobbery surrounds CPs and if anyone wants to buy expensive ones and they can afford them and more importantly they will do the job required of them good luck to them.
As an inexperienced CP user but an angler of 60 years my advice would be get what you need to do the job you want it for if it can be had fairly cheap great if you really have to pay more then that's the time for you to decide if its worth it.
---------- Post added at 18:30 ---------- Previous post was at 18:20 ----------
Easily achieved with a small tweek of the CNC that produces them
---------- Post added at 18:31 ---------- Previous post was at 18:30 ----------
Ah but could you tell stork from butter
Alan
You can tell from I'm the photos it's not a rebadge, the backplate is different
iain t
Well-known member
Probably from the same manufacturers in China but with cheaper Alloy stock and bearing. A little tweak on the cutting machine and hay presto no design infringements.
A bit like TFG river and stream rods from a few years back. Said to be made on Free Spirit blanks. Half the price of a free spirit rod. If the rumours were true.
Most fishing kit is made in China these days from top end reels to £2.99 ones. Most blanks are built in China too. Okuma is a Japanese company but all their kit is made in China now days. Greys FD reels look very similar to Drennan reels. I've got both and if i was blindfolded i could tell the difference when in use.
The first CP picture also sells under the Marco Cortesi and Ikon names. The second CP that looks like a Sheffield is also sold under the Ikon name too. The new Madfish CP is a Matt Hayes limited edition CP( the one with spokes) with a bit of blue paint on the rim. The first Matt Hayes Limited edition CP( Grey faced) is sold under so many names I've lost count. In all there all the same as each other. Made in the same place.
Most companies ask outsourced designers to design a reel, rod etc. It's cheaper for them to outsource than employ in-house. It's the designers that hold the copyright to the item. So unless there is an agreement in their contract they can make very close look alike with a tweak and there as much as they like. I have been told that the designers most of the time must not share or sale their designs for 2 years after the original product goes on sale.
Sometimes the original seller i.e company will sell the same item under a made up name to cover the cost of the tooling and design costs. This way they make a quicker profit and put the income towards the next design. This also helps to keep their costs down.
One thing to remember is the cutters wear out. So once the made up name ones go on sale the tooling isn't replaced as much as the original one to keep the costs down. This is where the tolerance differs in the quality of build
Well that's my tuppence.
A bit like TFG river and stream rods from a few years back. Said to be made on Free Spirit blanks. Half the price of a free spirit rod. If the rumours were true.
Most fishing kit is made in China these days from top end reels to £2.99 ones. Most blanks are built in China too. Okuma is a Japanese company but all their kit is made in China now days. Greys FD reels look very similar to Drennan reels. I've got both and if i was blindfolded i could tell the difference when in use.
The first CP picture also sells under the Marco Cortesi and Ikon names. The second CP that looks like a Sheffield is also sold under the Ikon name too. The new Madfish CP is a Matt Hayes limited edition CP( the one with spokes) with a bit of blue paint on the rim. The first Matt Hayes Limited edition CP( Grey faced) is sold under so many names I've lost count. In all there all the same as each other. Made in the same place.
Most companies ask outsourced designers to design a reel, rod etc. It's cheaper for them to outsource than employ in-house. It's the designers that hold the copyright to the item. So unless there is an agreement in their contract they can make very close look alike with a tweak and there as much as they like. I have been told that the designers most of the time must not share or sale their designs for 2 years after the original product goes on sale.
Sometimes the original seller i.e company will sell the same item under a made up name to cover the cost of the tooling and design costs. This way they make a quicker profit and put the income towards the next design. This also helps to keep their costs down.
One thing to remember is the cutters wear out. So once the made up name ones go on sale the tooling isn't replaced as much as the original one to keep the costs down. This is where the tolerance differs in the quality of build
Well that's my tuppence.
iain t
Well-known member
Wouldn't bother me buying the 2 CP in the first pictures. As long as the tolerances were acceptable and it ran true. I would just change the bearings to decent Abec ones.
Alan Tyler
Well-known member
That might be so they don't get sued...
Ya gotta possess it to assess it?
My own two penn'orth, as a cheapskate who has far too many budget centrepins, is roughly this: For carp and pike, a tough reel is better than a fine one, and possibly the most important feature is a smooth rim that won't burn your thumb when you try to stop an angry lump. This is vexatious with pike, as in the winter, a wooden or plastic reel is less horrid to hold than a metal one. Aerialites can be handy then, and are very cheap at the moment.
For lake work and ponding, for tench, crucians and such, just use any old centre pin you like; how pretty it looks in your trophy shots is as valid a criterion as any, you're unlikely to be trying to Wallis cast. Unless you find a shoal of rudd; no matter how you feed, they always seem to drift away from trouble, don't they?
Fast-flowing rivers give the spoke'n'pillars jobs their chance to shine; line peeling off an Aerial is a fine sight to behold, as long as it's someone else's; the angler is supposed to be watching the float.
Moderate and slow flows are the acid test. Pillars soon put "corners" in the line, and on a modern rod with lots of small-diameter rings, they soon start arguing about who shall pass through which ring first, like minor aristos at the Sun King's court arguing over precedence. So I reach for a round-arboured reel. One of my very best is a Speedia with a 3-D printed plastic arbour, otherwise, I tend to use Rapidexes if the wind will be blowing across my body to the rod, Trudexes if it's the other way, or calm. I have freer-running reels, a Hardy Conquest (modern 3-handled version) which is very smooth, but has no compensating drag, and a couple of cheap bearing reels which have the same disqualification; I have cheaper reels, notably Aerialite center-pins (as opposed to "Swimming reels" with the T-bar nut) and a Shakespeare "Lincoln" (unbelievably free-running) for when I'm desperate enough to brave the cold; I have lovely wooden Slater-latches, and knock-offs thereof, which I use because they look good on cane; but I could do without them all if I have my two best Speedias and an ample supply of Raps and Trudies.
I laid out £7.50 on a "Black Zero" in a Dragon Carp sale, and couldn't believe how nice it was to fish with (no drag, though). You sometimes fluke a bit more than you paid for!
If someone could make a Rapidex clone with with a removable bottom bar to the cage, which would make Wallis casting feasible, that would be the only reel I'd need. Not that I'd get rid of the others...
The two smoothest reels I ever held were a Browning Revolver and a Sowerbutts' with a telephone latch - not even a "proper" centre-pin! Both had that "where's the motor?" feel. I'd be scared to take one to a nasty, earthy river bank.
---------- Post added at 19:37 ---------- Previous post was at 19:36 ----------
Oops- typing while Iain posted. Most illuminating post, that, Thank you!
Ya gotta possess it to assess it?
My own two penn'orth, as a cheapskate who has far too many budget centrepins, is roughly this: For carp and pike, a tough reel is better than a fine one, and possibly the most important feature is a smooth rim that won't burn your thumb when you try to stop an angry lump. This is vexatious with pike, as in the winter, a wooden or plastic reel is less horrid to hold than a metal one. Aerialites can be handy then, and are very cheap at the moment.
For lake work and ponding, for tench, crucians and such, just use any old centre pin you like; how pretty it looks in your trophy shots is as valid a criterion as any, you're unlikely to be trying to Wallis cast. Unless you find a shoal of rudd; no matter how you feed, they always seem to drift away from trouble, don't they?
Fast-flowing rivers give the spoke'n'pillars jobs their chance to shine; line peeling off an Aerial is a fine sight to behold, as long as it's someone else's; the angler is supposed to be watching the float.
Moderate and slow flows are the acid test. Pillars soon put "corners" in the line, and on a modern rod with lots of small-diameter rings, they soon start arguing about who shall pass through which ring first, like minor aristos at the Sun King's court arguing over precedence. So I reach for a round-arboured reel. One of my very best is a Speedia with a 3-D printed plastic arbour, otherwise, I tend to use Rapidexes if the wind will be blowing across my body to the rod, Trudexes if it's the other way, or calm. I have freer-running reels, a Hardy Conquest (modern 3-handled version) which is very smooth, but has no compensating drag, and a couple of cheap bearing reels which have the same disqualification; I have cheaper reels, notably Aerialite center-pins (as opposed to "Swimming reels" with the T-bar nut) and a Shakespeare "Lincoln" (unbelievably free-running) for when I'm desperate enough to brave the cold; I have lovely wooden Slater-latches, and knock-offs thereof, which I use because they look good on cane; but I could do without them all if I have my two best Speedias and an ample supply of Raps and Trudies.
I laid out £7.50 on a "Black Zero" in a Dragon Carp sale, and couldn't believe how nice it was to fish with (no drag, though). You sometimes fluke a bit more than you paid for!
If someone could make a Rapidex clone with with a removable bottom bar to the cage, which would make Wallis casting feasible, that would be the only reel I'd need. Not that I'd get rid of the others...
The two smoothest reels I ever held were a Browning Revolver and a Sowerbutts' with a telephone latch - not even a "proper" centre-pin! Both had that "where's the motor?" feel. I'd be scared to take one to a nasty, earthy river bank.
---------- Post added at 19:37 ---------- Previous post was at 19:36 ----------
Oops- typing while Iain posted. Most illuminating post, that, Thank you!
iain t
Well-known member
An enjoyable read Alan. So i take it you only use a pin. How do you get on with using one for Stillwater's? . I have trouble chucking a light float more than 2 foot from the tip. On running water am fine as usually casting a heavier float.
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The reel is deffo not a re-badge at all, it's absolutely nothing like a sheffield other than the front plate and centre screw.
The drum linelay is ventilated, the backplate is like a marco style, etc etc.
The youngs reels you speak of where exactly the same other than different colored parts.
sam vimes
Well-known member
Stillwater is a brand name. That brand name is owned by Chapmans Angling/Glasgow Angling Centre (both the same company). Whether the Severn reel is from the same factory as an Okuma Sheffield or is a copy made in another factory is largely immaterial. It certainly isn't a simple rebadge job. Even with the middle man cut out, to sell at sixty quid, some costs must have been cut in comparison to a Sheffield. There are some visible differences between them, but there may be invisible differences too. Quality of bearings and materials are easy to cut without any outward signs. One of the best ways to reduce costs with Chinese manufacturers is to reduce QC checks. More that the odd importer reduces QC to the absolute minimum. They just take the increased chances of returns as a business risk.
B
binka
Guest
In the scores of sessions I've had float fishing stillwaters over the last eighteen months or so (since reverting back to the 'pin) I am struggling to think of a session where I've used a fixed spool.
I'm a bit of a margin merchant anyway but I'm usually comfortable anything up to around three rod lengths out by gathering loops off the first two or three rings.
I find I fish slider style much more as it generally helps and can allow a bit of extra distance if required, I suppose if distance is an issue then the fs is the right choice but I just prefer using the 'pin and much prefer playing a fish off the rim than off of a drag.
I got into a bit of a mess with it the first couple of sessions but like many things if you stick at it, it will often become effortless.
Alan Tyler
Well-known member
Tigger, you're absolutely right, but things like perforating the arbour could be anti-lawsuit tweaks to something being made in the same plant - or not. Someone has to try both to tell which. And, as I say, not all copies are duff.
IainT, I do use fixed spools when necessary, though at the moment, that only means hauling a spinner back past my dead-bait rig. I have waters available where I could hurl a feeder out, but it has very little appeal compared to river fishing, and my current favourite river doesn't require a fixed spool to belt a waggler over to the far bank.
How light a float? if it's a pole float, you will struggle to get more than a rod's length out; you need to estimate how much weight you'll need to cast the required distance, then select a float that will carry (or include) it. Usually a couple of BB will give a decent swing, but don't be afraid to go a bit more positive, especially in a breeze.
Totally with Binka on the joy of the slider - it helps to sink the line, the strike is faster and silent, and by including an easily-opened (pre-used and with a notch to get your nail in) shot above the bulk, or above the shot that keeps the float away from the bulk, you can quickly trap the float shallower by re-positioning said shot above it, to try inside for margin-prowlers. Quicker than moving the stop-knot and then having to re-set itto go back out.
IainT, I do use fixed spools when necessary, though at the moment, that only means hauling a spinner back past my dead-bait rig. I have waters available where I could hurl a feeder out, but it has very little appeal compared to river fishing, and my current favourite river doesn't require a fixed spool to belt a waggler over to the far bank.
How light a float? if it's a pole float, you will struggle to get more than a rod's length out; you need to estimate how much weight you'll need to cast the required distance, then select a float that will carry (or include) it. Usually a couple of BB will give a decent swing, but don't be afraid to go a bit more positive, especially in a breeze.
Totally with Binka on the joy of the slider - it helps to sink the line, the strike is faster and silent, and by including an easily-opened (pre-used and with a notch to get your nail in) shot above the bulk, or above the shot that keeps the float away from the bulk, you can quickly trap the float shallower by re-positioning said shot above it, to try inside for margin-prowlers. Quicker than moving the stop-knot and then having to re-set itto go back out.
Jeff Woodhouse
Moaning Marlow Meldrew
Well spotted, Keith, but 'Stillwater' is simply the brand name for Chapman's own sourced products, that's all.
---------- Post added at 17:05 ---------- Previous post was at 16:56 ----------
Well, strictly speaking, a 'pin' is just that, no bearings and the spool spins on a pin. That's how a lot of old starbacks are and that is exactly where modern centrepins were derived from.
Saying that, I can't find a picture of my reel, but it's NOT Okuma, just very like it. I think Skippy said when I first pictured it here that he'd sooner die before being seen using one looking like that.
But it does work really well and better than my Youngs that was over four time the price.