Charlie Bettell - One Eyed Pike

[Charlie Bettell]

Hi David

I have to say that the people in the FishingMagic.com Forums are far more civilised to those in the P&P Forums.

In this Forum they have discussed the One Eyed Pike issue sensibly, and most have admitted that there is a growing problem that needs to be addressed.

 

[Carp Angler]

I just had a look at that forum.
I take my hat off to you Charlie with your measured and calm responses to people with the maturity of school children.

It's not the sort of place I'd ever visit again.

 

[Ron Clay]

Just picked up on this thread. Yes Charlie I have had a few one eyed pike in the fens of late. In fact the 16 pounder netted for me by Chris Bishop had a badly deformed eye.

The fish was also badly scarred down one side.

The damage certainly didn't seem to worry the pike all that much as I caught the same fish 2 days later and on both occasions the fish fought very well indeed.

 

[Rob Brownfield]

Charlie. One question, in a civilized manner....

Is it not the case that in magazines such as Coarse Fisherman, you have, in the past, promoted the use of large lures such as the Bucher Depth Raiders, and have infact been photographed many, many times with Pike that have very large lures hanging from there mouths? I have old Coarse Fishermans mags with these pictures on the front cover. Infact, on your own website there is a pic of u holding a large fish, whilst standing up, with a large lure hanging down the side of the pikes head http://www.esox.co.uk/pikefishing2000/new_page_8.htm

I think that you are on very thin ice Charlie.

I have read and respected your views for many years now, but come on Charlie...stop the "holier than thou!" attitude, it is damaging your repretation.


Rik, I agree that some of the things said in the other forums are a bit harsh, but there are reasons behind there anger...would u like to be accused of damaging Carp by someone who has been promoting methods that could be causing the damage in the first place??

 

[Paul Kendall]

Interesting thread ..... When I first started lure fishing I was using Rapala Husky Jerks mostly, with 3 trebles. I found I was having difficulties with deep hooking and external hooking so I now remove the middle treble on all of my 3 treble lures.

Also - on the bigger lures with the bigger hooks I snip the trebles off, add a split ring and re-mount trebles accordingly (this also makes it easier when you get a hook damaged).

As far as using big singles - I won't do it for pike & perch, no need. On a recent trip to Africa, we changed all of the trebles for singles to catch Tiger fish - the biggest problem with that was when a fish hits hard and you strike, the single hook is driven through the fishes mouth and out of the cheek - not good if you are on catch & release.

As an afterthought - how many of you fly fish for pike and how many trebles are there on your flies ?

 

[Ron Clay]

I have caught tigerfish, tilapia, Catfish, carp, yellowfish and pike on the fly rod. Never had any problems damaging these fish.

We used to catch catfish up to 40 lbs on size 4 and 6 flies. Never went above a 4. It wasn't necessary. Best sizes for tigers are 4s and 2s - no bigger. Have NEVER used a treble on a fly in my life and have never thought I had the need to do so.

 

[Gary Knowles]

Rob,

Good points, well made.

Surley standing up to photograph a pike is one of the most dangerous things to do when we speak about pike welfare - Charlie ?

In saying that I agree with a couple of the points of Charlie made - we cannot deny that using several large hooks on long jerkbaits can cause damage.

But also like Eric says, pike fishing and lure fishing in particular will ALWAYS damage fish to a certain extent. Lets face it a lot od pike do 'miss' the lure and get hooked outside the mouth or even on the head..........a fact we cannot get away from.

If you cannot accept this, fish with a fly and single hook, or stop lure fishing !

 

[Rob Brownfield]

Gary, not only is he standing with a fish with the lure hanging down the fishes face, the boat has no protection on the edge of the seats etc. The base of the boat has carpet, but that is all. I cant see an umhooking mat in any picture, but that sharp aluminium edge is more then evident as a potential fish killer.

Most worrying of all is the lack of life jackets....a leagl requirement on a commercial boat I thought? (Trout fisheries etc) I presume there is no insurance for his customers either, because if there was, it would be null and void if there was no life jackets!!

Sorry Charlie....

 

[Charlie Bettell]

You thought wrong Rob - read the thread I have just posted on P&P - better still:-

I can take any amount of criticism - but don't expect me to sit back and take crap.

I have put my hands up to the problems that I have encountered with lures equipped with OTT trebles - but you obviously have not taken the time to read all the threads. I have nothing against the lures you mentioned, but I do have a grievance with the size and amount of hooks on them.

The photo you refer to, was a single hook lure. The picture was set-up to show what you can catch by using a lure with a single hook. You picked the ideal photo to point this out to people in the Forum - well spotted Rob.

As for big lures that I have shown in the past in Coarse Fisherman, equipped with big hooks, I have not used such hooks since I found out, the hard way, what damage they could cause to pike. Note: I do not have a problem with Bucher lures and the like, just their OTT hooks.

As for people standing holding pike, I do not have a problem when an experienced pike stands with his catch - just as I would not tell you how to hold a pike if you were fishing with me and wanted me to take a photo of you with your catch in the standing position.

Not all my clients are novices Rob - I'm sure Gerry Castles and Trevor Salmon will confirm that - as would Pete Wadeson who you will also find standing holding a pike in www.esox.co.uk/digipike2000

As for life jackets and insurance, what has that to do with the issue of One Eyed Pike?

Insurance does not cover clients Rob - Public Liability is what you need in order to cover a client should an accident occur through fault of the guide.

There is no written law that says guides on inland waters have to have insurance for their boat/s, and have to have Public Liability for there clients.

Once again Rob, you have evaded the issue and made yourself look stupid by not knowing the law regarding guiding - of should I say the lack of law regarding guides and guiding on inland UK waters.

 

[Rob Shallcroft]

Charlie -- power to your elbow for
raising the subject......the fact
that you have been at the front in
publishing articles in the past
promoting the use of these lures is
irrelivent.....we all learn from
experience and yours no doubt is
greater than most.
I have recent experience of the
damage these lures can cause which
spoilt what should have been a
memorable event in my fishing life.

Ihave Pike fished for many years
catching fish to upper twenties
mainly live baiting on the river
Wye. The thirty has always alluded
me so for the first time my partner
and i thought we would join the
party and book tickets for Chew
Valley. With zero experience of
lure fishing or boat fishing we
planned to troll using coloured
smelts with silver tags. Most of
the boats headed for a single
area of the water where fish had
come out of on opening day. This
being the second day turned out to
be the bonanza day with huge amount
of pike being caught mostly on
Bull-dawg type laws in a area no
more than an acre of water.We did
not join the party and did our own
thing in other areas of Chew , we
were learning really the ecosounder
and trolling for the first time etc
Late afternoon , bang i had a take
and after a great scrap an seeing
an enormous Pike in the net i had
achieved my dream with a thirty
plus.To my absolute horror the fish
had terrible damage to one side of
its head and eye ,still bleeding.
My partner looked at the fish in
silence , it spoilt what should
have been such a great moment in my
life.We had another day booked but
our "hearts" were not into it.

 

[Charlie Bettell]

I am very sorry to hear about the eye damage, I know the feeling, but congratulate you on your achievment.

Thank you for you kind words, it is people like you that I am more than happy to put my head on the chopping block for.

Regards

Charlie

 

[Peter Waller]

I see Charlie has come to Fishing Magic for peace & quiet from the Pike & Predator site. As Rob Brownfield has said, in so many words, some pike anglers have long memeories and, I think Charlie has a short fuse! In some respects Charlie has been given a rough ride, but not without reason, and generally good reason. But, personalities and temperments aside, Charlie has a good point. We do need to look at the hooks that we use. A name that some of you might recogise, Gerry Castles, plus yours truly, have been experimenting with circle hooks. With soft rubber lures these things are brillient! Some of the lures that pikers use, the Bull Dog springs to mind, is developing a reputation for hooking problems, yet, such as Nev Fickling is still recommending it, despite the fact that the pike fishing community is aware of this. However, I very rarely see 'eye' problems, and like Charlie, I fish the Broads. Its not that I don't catch many pike, I do, its just that, perhaps, its a problem local to Charlie. What I do see is appalling fish handling. Pike laid on the ground, a foot pushed down on it & the hooks dragged out being an example. These worst examples being with people who tend to dead bait. The fact that it is so easy to buy a deadbait, sling it out, go to sleep in the car or bottom of the boat, does seem to attract some right dead-heads to piking. Atleast with lure fishing and livebaiting some effort is required and effort is an effective deterent! Thanks to the constant promotion of pike fishing, by such as Charlie, pike fishing has become excessively popular. There are to many pikers chasing to few fish. We need to nurture what we have, yes we do need to look at hooking practices, we need to look at a great deal more as well. The use of four rods by one angler from a boat is a lethal practice when the angler casts to all four points of the compass. No way can they watch four floats at once. Relying on bite alarms whilst sleeping should be looked at, we all know that it happens. Pike matches, we need to look closely at how these are supervised, if these are to continue. Bad angling practices are inexcusable, but pike fishing does appear to have more than its fair share. But is Charlie the man for the task? He does seem incredibly able to develop and draw flak! Mick Brown is a professional piker, never seen any animosity there. Watto, another professional Broads guide could be pretty caustic at times, but people accepted it & he is well repected. Must be a Charlie thing. Doesn't stop him being spot on right in his concerns though.

 

[Craig w]

Im sad to say that i have also caught one eyed pike & others with bad damage to the mouth.
I have also found 2 dead jacks this year on my only 2 tricps piking on the Tiverton Canal, one still had the plug wedged in its mouth & the other had very bad mouth damage from a plug or trebles being ripped out (one treble was still deep in its troat)
Im sure this is due to the large number of junior anglers that fish in the area & are not used to handling the pike.

 

[Rob Brownfield]

Charlie...I have not avoided the issue one little bit. You say that you are catching pike with eye damage and that you feel it is due to the use of overly large lures with overly large hooks. Fine, a good point and I agree with you, its an improtant issue, thank you for bringing it up.

My point is this though. You are standing back from the problem and pointing you finger at us, those anglers who have read your articals, followed your advice and bought the lures you yourself have told us to rush out and buy. You have been influential in encouraging anglers to use large lures and to fish the Broads, but you then blame those anglers for damaging what seem to be "your" fish.

Come on Charlie. The Brundall angling centre is full of MASSIVE lures, lures that I would not even use up here on the large lochs. These guys are selling and stocking these lures because of your influence.

As for life jackets, I used this example to show how hypocritical you are becoming. Your website quite clearly states that no angler should fish from a boat without wearing one...yet there u are, and your clients, in a boat, with no lifejackets what so ever.

As for standing in a boat with a large Pike, why should I accept your arguement that "its the done thing" by sone of your clients/you yourself? If you were to do that on a commercial Carp fishery, you would be banned for life mate! Just because its a Pike, does this make it ok? Accidents happen!

The insurance thing comes from my fear that one day, you will have an angler drown on you, and from what I have been told by Scottish Ghillies, your public liability cover will be null and void if they were not wearing a lifejacket!

I ask these questions, and I hope to get an answer from Charlie:-
Without beating about the bush, who do you feel are responsible for the damage you speak of?
What, as an angler, can we do to stop this in the future?
Will you remove pictures of anglers standing in a boat from your site since this is an extremely dangerous thing to promote? (Or remove the advice from your site)

 

[Andrew Miller]

I have been a client of Charlie in the past and in fact it was him who caught me how to unhooked pike safely. I have been in his boat and don't understand the comment about unprotected sharp edges because surely this will applies to every single boat unless it a rubber one! The bottom of the boat is carpeted and everything is kept clear for quick and efficent unhooking. I don't think it is possible for everyone to remained sitting throughout a boat trip . Of course there is a danger element but the important thing is common sense. If someone insissted in not using common sense no matter how safe the situation is they will alway be in danger. The other comment was there are too many pikers chasing too few fish which give the impression there are too many anglers but it hadn't stop the moaners from fishing themselves. My impression of Charles is that he care about pike and pike fishing and want to share it with other. Whereas I also get the impression from the moaners that unless you are fishing with selected band of piker we ordinary anglers shouldn't be allowed to fish for pike as all.

 

[Peter Waller]

It was me to raised the point about an excess of pike anglers. I stand by that comment but don't take it as a moan! You can not decide who can go fishing, heaven forbid that that ever happens. Pike fishing will decline, if hammered and mistreated, & people will drift away & look for other species to fish for, that way we will come back to the status quo. That is until pike stocks recover & the whole cycle starts again. Pessimist or realist, you decide. I reckon there is no finer pastime than angling but in today's society its all about kicks, & pike, and even barbel provide that.

 

[Charlie Bettell]

Rob: Come on Charlie. The Brundall angling centre is full of MASSIVE lures, lures that I would not even use up here on the large lochs. These guys are selling and stocking these lures because of your influence.

Charlie: What a load of rubbish Rob, you really are talking out of your arse.

Rob: My point is this though. You are standing back from the problem and pointing you finger at us, those anglers who have read your articals, followed your advice and bought the lures you yourself have told us to rush out and buy. You have been influential in encouraging anglers to use large lures and to fish the Broads, but you then blame those anglers for damaging what seem to be "your" fish.

Charlie: I have not blamed anybody but the OTT lures/hooks for causing damage to pike. Where have I ever called them "my fish"? You really are talking a load of rubbish Rob.

Rob: As for life jackets, I used this example to show how hypocritical you are becoming. Your website quite clearly states that no angler should fish from a boat without wearing one...yet there u are, and your clients, in a boat, with no lifejackets what so ever. It is up to me and my clients weather or not we choose to wear life jackets. My boat is one of the safest on the Norfolk Broads - and virtually impossible to fall overboard!

Rob: As for standing in a boat with a large Pike, why should I accept your arguement? If you were to do that on a commercial Carp fishery, you would be banned for life mate! Just because its a Pike, does this make it ok? Accidents happen! The insurance thing comes from my fear that one day, you will have an angler drown on you, and from what I have been told by Scottish Ghillies, your public liability cover will be null and void if they were not wearing a lifejacket!

Charlie: No Rob, this is clearly your lack of knowledge regarding Insurance and Public Liablity - something that you should have had when guiding! You obviously did not have either - hypocrite!! If I choose not to wear a life jacket, that's my problem! I will still advise others to wear one - especially so in less sea worthy boats than mine.
--------------------------------------
E-mail:-

Charlie, things are getting a little heated between you and me unfortuantly, so, in private I would like to air my concerns.

The way you have come across to myself is this. You have heavily influenced me in my lure angling. I have taken your advice on lures, rods, techniques etc for many years, but you have accussed me, indirectly admittadly, of damaging fish by my choice of lure. I am sure you can see why this would upset me.

I for one now make many of my own lures, and I keep hook sizes down, or use singles because I felt that OTT hooks were a problem. The trouble is, you have never come out publically (that i know of) in a major fishing magazine and said that you felt these large lures were causing damage. Show us what to do, how to minimise the damage, and I am sure this will help un-ruffle a few feathers.

I think the internet is a wonderful thing, but it is all to easy to come across in the wrong light, and I think this has happened to both of us recently. I respect your view, and I know you have concern for the Pike, but so do I.

I hope we can find some common ground between us and maybe bury this arguement once and for all...besides, who else am i going to get to support me on fly fishing for Pike )

Many Regards
Rob Brownfield
--------------------------------------

Fact: I wrote an article for Coarse Fisherman some years back regarding the damage big lures, equipped with OTT hooks, were causing pike. I was given as much grief back then for speaking out as I've been given this past few days.

I rest my case!!

[this message was shortened to fit new size restrictions - contact the poster for full details]

 

[Rob Brownfield]

Charlie, I wrote that e mail to you in private to try and clear the air! I do not appreciate private correspondence being shown in public!

The fly fishing for pike part was to highlight the fact that we do have common ground and that we both care for our fish and fishing. Infact, we both put up a valient fight on that one, togehter! If you noticed, it was ment to lighten the atmosphere a little and try an break tension. I am sorry I even attempted to try and bury the hatchett.


I am thourghly dissapointed in the way you, as a "professional" angler have handled yourself in this matter. You have treated other anglers with contempt and have even resort to insults on other sites and bad language on this site.

You have every right to defend yourself, and I fully support that, but to result to name calling etc is a little bit dissapointing.

You cannot deny that, especially on other sites, you have wound up a good many anglers.

I rest my case.

 

[Rob Brownfield]

To one and all, I am sorry that this thread, here and on other sites, has turned into a somewhat personnal battle. Every one has a right to his or her own opinion afterall.

This was most certainly not my intention. I have heard good reports on the trips Charlie runs by a friend of mine who has been on several. To this end, I feel it right that I end my correspondence regarding this issue. I am certainly not one for slagging matches, and as it seems that this is the way it is heading, I guess its time to end here.

Sorry once more folks.

 

[Charlie Bettell]

My final word.

Rob, you should have waited for a response to your e-mail before posting more threads on Fishingmagic.com, again, running me down - it is you that acted unprofessionally.

If you are ever down my way you are more than welcome to come fish with me, to see for yourself, if I am as bad as you have tried to make me out in this, and the P&P, Forum.

Regards

Charlie