Do Big Clubs Own to Many Waters

[greenie62]

.... the lease covered 11 Kms of the River, including the Town section where the Council were having ASB problems......

The Town stretch, plus other stretches at Eccleston Ferry, etc were - 'free fishing' - and included as part of your licence on the old Dee River Board Licence - many moons ago. The subsequent re-shuffles of the River Boards, Water Authorities, the EA and NRW have seen these stretches 'clarified' as to ownership with the resulting confusion resolved as Phil explained.

Some of us 'owd b*ggers' remember fishing these free/paid-for stretches as part of our entitlement having bought the River Licence - and hence resent having to pay someone else these days! mg:

 

[nottskev]

You are seeing what you want to see. I hold no particular opinion on public access waters, beyond a general preference that they remain open to all where possible. The difference in perspective I hold is in knowing that many public waters would be lost entirely to fishing if it weren't for clubs taking them on. I'd much rather open access waters remain open access, but I'd rather see any club get them than lose them to (legal) angling completely.

Perhaps PAAS does have too much water. I can see why some will think that way. As it stands, it's not something I really hold a strong opinion on either way. All I know is that they must be doing something right to have all that water and a significant waiting list.

Well, reading the post from The Bad One, who clearly does know and care, it looks as though I was wrong on the specifics of this one. Although I'm still not sold on the giant club model.

 

[The bad one]

I'll stand corrected; if you are right , then some of these details are very different from what I'd heard before.


But it's not my council, nor did I say anything about PA bailiffing or whether Lymm and Warrington are good clubs.


I'll be more wary of "*****", and hope my posts are read accurately.

Lost a bit in the cut and pasting from Word to this site " to whoever said .....PA don't bailliff......LAA WAA....." apologies for that. Kev do you not get services from Chester City Council, sit on the electoral role, pay Council Tax to them? If you do then as far as I'm concerned you have a stake in it and some ownership of it, it's your Council.

 

[thecrow]

By a lot of hard work from the committee and minimal expenditure!

We apply for any sort of grants we can get - e.g. from local businesses and authorities - try and form good relationships with EA, C&RT, FC, ATr, MBRT and UU - in some cases these are the land-owners - and coordinate work parties with them and their schedules. In some cases their gratitude e.g. with Forestry Commission, leads to them paying for stockings, or helping with other items e.g. Tree clearance, Public Liability Insurance.

A lot of local businesses would rather that local youths were fishing local lakes and ponds, rather than bricking windows, etc. This is not meant as a threat to the businesses - pay for our fishing OR we'll brick your windows! - but is a natural consequence of "idle hands"! The local Police and PCSOs have been quite supportive by helping-out on bankside tidy-ups, etc.

Also - by having people on the banks - we are quick to spot pollution incidents and report them to the EA, etc - as well as social media. Some companies having been alerted to this are quite responsive and have subsequently shown their gratitude in terms of contributions to stocking funds, etc.

We've also held a few matches through the summer, with the entry fees going into the stocking fund. Some of the lads have got into the Match scene through this - together with help from Seniors on the bank - and even a Teach-in by Ian Heapes (what a nice man!) - No National Champions yet - but who knows?!

No short answer to your question I'm afraid - but you get the idea!

Its great to hear of a club such as yours Mike one that works with the local community, I don't know if any of the large clubs are able to do this particularly when waters are spread far and wide with joining fees that may cause anglers who are local to those waters being unable to afford to join and fish those waters.


There are of course large clubs with a big portfolio of waters who's joining fees are fairly affordable one being BAA.

 

[nottskev]

Lost a bit in the cut and pasting from Word to this site " to whoever said .....PA don't bailliff......LAA WAA....." apologies for that. Kev do you not get services from Chester City Council, sit on the electoral role, pay Council Tax to them? If you do then as far as I'm concerned you have a stake in it and some ownership of it, it's your Council.

Actually, no I don't! I've lived in Nottingham for 14 years. There is a clue in the name Nottskev, and that explains why, for my sins, I'm destined to fish, and post about, the Trent around here (great for about 4/5 months of the year only) and the beautiful but hardly fish-filled local Derwent, where you can catch small grayling, search for lonely chub, and wonder where all the roach and dace are.

I would be better informed about the Chester scene if I lived there. As it is, I know what I've been told by people who do, and via some press coverage.

During the last period I lived there - 92 - 03 - the Dee was in a tragic decline with very meagre catches from the lower river. For example, A friend of mine, fitter and with more patience than me, would cycle, with his gear, along the meadows all the way to Eccleston, stopping to look for a pocket of fish. If he found some, they'd invariably have gone when we re-visited. The annual migration at Farndon was exceptional. I used to wish it were better,as it is such a lovely river. It was on the up when I left (I had some great fishing with the new crop of small barbel at Almere) and I believe it has been improving in many ways over recent years.

Fishing was allowed in The Groves when I was a non-fishing schoolboy, and I saw the best catch of big roach I've ever seen when I asked a bloke who had been fishing overnight next to the bandstand - on straight-legered red cheese - to show me the fish in his net. It was a couple of rings deep in pound plus roach. By the time I had tackle, catches like that were history, but I'm sure Chester anglers live in hope.

 

[The bad one]

I got the impression you still lived in Chester from this I grew up fishing the town stretches of the River Dee in Chester. A few years ago, a mega-club 35 miles away took over those stretches and, because they don't do day tickets and have a two -year waiting list for (not cheap) membership, local anglers were prevented from accessing the river on their doorstep. Clearly not now you’ve explained it.
The nickname means nothing really, I worked with a guy called “Oldhem’ (Oldham) Pete.” He lived in South Manchester and had done longer than he‘d ever lived in Oldham. He’d got the nickname “Oldhem Pete” because of his accent, which was broad Oldham with not a hint of Manc in it.
The Dee certainly was on a downward cycle back then as I fished the river but higher up around Banger. The mate I course fished with during the winter did a lot of salmon fishing during the salmon season, but no longer does as the salmon fishing is just not a viable proposition any longer.

 

[markcw]

Lost a bit in the cut and pasting from Word to this site " to whoever said .....PA don't bailliff......LAA WAA....." apologies for that. Kev do you not get services from Chester City Council, sit on the electoral role, pay Council Tax to them? If you do then as far as I'm concerned you have a stake in it and some ownership of it, it's your Council.

I said WAA and Lymm are good clubs, I am a bailiff for Lymm and have been in WAA since I was a kid, I am 63 now, I have seen waters come and go with both clubs and at the moment they seem to be at a happy medium, although Lymm seem to be a more carp orientated club, only by the fact that most of their waters have carp in them, I did have the chance to join PA but had to decline, As for not being bailiffed I am only going by what a long standing member of PA told me, he travels a lot to fish their rivers and says he has never been asked for licence, And when I last checked Eccleston Ferry is still free fishing, it is stated in some ancient charter about it being for the people or words to that effect,

 

[Artie]

Large clubs do not prevent local anglers from using local waters, a glance at membership records will indicate that potential members gravitate to clubs that have waters in their area that they want to fish, this is easily proved by river or lake side conversations.

Also for consideration is that in most participant sports the ideal or preferred travel time is 50 to 60 minutes so local may be 40 to 50 miles away.
So, the whole issue is more than Large memberships with numerous waters equals disenfranchised local anglers is not the case, it’s much more complicated than that

 

[thecrow]

Large clubs do not prevent local anglers from using local waters, a glance at membership records will indicate that potential members gravitate to clubs that have waters in their area that they want to fish, this is easily proved by river or lake side conversations.

Also for consideration is that in most participant sports the ideal or preferred travel time is 50 to 60 minutes so local may be 40 to 50 miles away.
So, the whole issue is more than Large memberships with numerous waters equals disenfranchised local anglers is not the case, it’s much more complicated than that

In the case of some large clubs it may well be the cost of joining a large club that will prevent some anglers being able to fish waters local to them, not all anglers have the wherewithal to pay what is asked particularly when joining fees are taken into account.

By the same token those anglers will be unable to travel the 40/50 miles to fish other waters, indeed some may not even have a vehicle they can use even if they could afford it.

The lakeside conversations you mention are likely to be with anglers that can afford the fees and be able to travel the 40/50 miles, you are hardly likely to meet up with those that cannot afford to join or travel to that clubs waters. Membership records show nothing other than who can afford to be a member it wont show who cannot, it wont show who cannot now fish a local water that they have in the past.

I don't see it as complicated at all, local waters taken over by a club (large or small ) with high joining fees cancels out any chance that some anglers will be able to fish them, they could be waters that local anglers have had access to fairly cheaply in the past.

There seems to be some assumptions being made on this thread that all anglers are able to afford to pay for the latest expensive tackle or be able to pay high joining fees for certain clubs, I doubt if I am the only one that visits FM that cannot.

 

[nottskev]

I have a practical question, concerning anglers who live near waters which are remote from the main cluster of waters owned/leased by the controlling club, and live on the edge of their geographical span.

Let's say you live in the region of Welshpool and Montgomery. This stretch of your local river - the Severn - is Lymm's. Just down the road, that stretch is Warrington's. And just over there, that stretch is PAAS. And so it goes. What do you do? Buy expensive club books where most of the club's other waters are out of reach for practical purposes, so you have to invest in a cluster of fisheries in Cheshire, a couple of hours' drive and more away, in order to fish the river nearby? Not fish the river? Guest it, at risk? What do anglers do in those areas where the big clubs divide up the waters? It's this type of anomaly, amongst other things, that gives me concern about big clubs collecting waters far from their main "base" of fishing.

Regarding distance travelled to fish, I fish in a lot of places, but more than 30 miles is rather unusual and qualifies as a "day out". The idea that up 40-50 miles counts as local strikes me as very odd. Nottingham anglers fishing their local waters in Birmingham (51m)? You must be getting through some petrol

 

[sam vimes]

Here are a couple of tales about fishing rights.

Popular rumour one (on forums and the local tackle shops):
Former day ticket trout water has been taken over by a syndicate of carp snobs that have ousted the original lease holder.

Reality:
Lease holder wanted to wrap up, for various reasons. The owner wanted reduced footfall and zero random visitors on day tickets. Former lease holder still part of the syndicate and it's in no way intended as just a carp water.

Popular rumour two (on forums and local tackle shops):
Club goes bust. Their best water is taken by a syndicate that's quick to pick over the corpse. Even some vague allusions that the syndicate is partly responsible for the demise of the club.

Reality:
Club went bust due to severe lack of members leading to a total inability to pay for the water they leased. Landowner of their best water had decided that if the club didn't exist, he wasn't going to allow fishing at all. A couple of fellas that had a pre-existing relationship with the landowner float the prospect of a very limited syndicate made up only of people they know personally and are willing to provide personal details, contacts, vehicle registrations etc so that the landowner knows who is on his land. Landowner goes for it believing that minimal angling activity will dissuade poaching. He gets a little cash, less hassle and an easier life.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't believe all that you see and hear. There are plenty of authoritative sounding people that don't have a clue. There are plenty of people that have their own agendas and axes to grind. They don't give a damn about the truth.

 

[tigger]

I have a practical question, concerning anglers who live near waters which are remote from the main cluster of waters owned/leased by the controlling club, and live on the edge of their geographical span.

Let's say you live in the region of Welshpool and Montgomery. This stretch of your local river - the Severn - is Lymm's. Just down the road, that stretch is Warrington's. And just over there, that stretch is PAAS. And so it goes. What do you do? Buy expensive club books where most of the club's other waters are out of reach for practical purposes, so you have to invest in a cluster of fisheries in Cheshire, a couple of hours' drive and more away, in order to fish the river nearby? Not fish the river? Guest it, at risk? What do anglers do in those areas where the big clubs divide up the waters? It's this type of anomaly, amongst other things, that gives me concern about big clubs collecting waters far from their main "base" of fishing.

Regarding distance travelled to fish, I fish in a lot of places, but more than 30 miles is rather unusual and qualifies as a "day out". The idea that up 40-50 miles counts as local strikes me as very odd. Nottingham anglers fishing their local waters in Birmingham (51m)? You must be getting through some petrol

I see exactly where your coming from Kev....there's nothing can be done about it though. I think if I was in the position you state above then there's little option other than to poach it!

 

[Graham Elliott 1]

I was in Salford recently visiting my Daughter who has moved there whilst GP training.

There was quite a bit in the local paper about canal fishing now being available to locals again. Wish I had taken more notice. Looked around the Quays that apparently had some big carp that now seem to have disappeared.

Ate at Ryan Giggs restuarant. Not bad. Often seen running along the Canal by all accounts.

Anyway. Two local Clubs one on Severn one on Warks Avon. Total outlay for OAP......£35 per year.

Also member of BAA. Great value and great waters. Helps me get around to more distant waters for a change.

Also Ross club (Wye) less than £100 and wait list with easier access for locals.


The bad news.

Wye and Usk. Taken waters from local clubs with great value memberships and cheap daytickets.
Basically IMO wiping out the competition so they can benefit. Prices per day more than some clubs joining fees.

Real bandits under the guise of helping angling.

This has also led to individual owners hiking prices.

Just my opinion

 

[Artie]

I have no argumemt with the Crows afordabilty thread I am retired on a pension so understand his point of view, however afordabilty is more a reflection on our society than the cost of membership. I don't drink or smoke so I can afford a club membership. If you take the most expensive club at £130 per annum, thats only £2.5 per week or .35 per day. at the lower end the BAA is only £40 Pa or £30 for over 65s fantastic value for money.

I have never really considered if fishing is an expensive hobby or not, however
We all have to cut our cloth acordingly.

 

[The bad one]

High joining fees my arse Graham! It works out at £2 50 a week over the two years you wait to get in the club. Then 2 50 therein after than for every year you remain a member.

Tell me what commie you can fish every day of the week if that's what you want to do, for £2 50 per week?

MarkCW I'm a bailiff for PA and have been for many years, I fish all over the country on their waters bailiffing the waters as I go. I meet members who tell me they never had their card checked and I know for a fact from my records I personally have checked their card at least once that season somewhere else. They have either very poor memories or they just lie!

Wish I had a pound for every time I've had that said to me.

I also bailiffed for WAA for 6 years when I was in the club and the same tail of bollox happened in there as well. Even had one guy tell me he'd left his card at home even though I'd take his card off him 6 months before for seriously breaking the rules and he'd been suspended for the club for 12 months.

You comments are second or third hand, as you've stated, you are not a member. And therefore coming from other people, who may or may not have an axe to grind with the club. Whereas mine and others on here are coming from members and their personal experiences. PA is not perfect, no club is, but it better that most, including WAA and LAA based on my experience of being in them.

 

[thecrow]

High joining fees my arse Graham! It works out at £2 50 a week over the two years you wait to get in the club. Then 2 50 therein after than for every year you remain a member.

Although I can understand you wanting to protect the club Phil its not all about PA although it seems to have become that, its not just large clubs but expensive ones but the thread title would have been to long I know of a club that costs £620 to join for the first season that includes a £345 joining fee.

On the other hand I know of a club that has some very good waters the joining fee is £7 yearly fees are £150 membership runs from the day of joining for a full year and importantly for those that are not so well off interest free monthly payments are available (£13.09) Two clubs at extreme ends of the spectrum I know which is looking after less financially well off locals.

 

[thecrow]

Wye and Usk. Taken waters from local clubs with great value memberships and cheap daytickets.
Basically IMO wiping out the competition so they can benefit. Prices per day more than some clubs joining fees.

Gazumpers, I will never pay to fish any of their waters on principle.

 

[Molehill]

I have a practical question, concerning anglers who live near waters which are remote from the main cluster of waters owned/leased by the controlling club, and live on the edge of their geographical span.

Let's say you live in the region of Welshpool and Montgomery. This stretch of your local river - the Severn - is Lymm's. Just down the road, that stretch is Warrington's. And just over there, that stretch is PAAS. And so it goes. What do you do? Buy expensive club books where most of the club's other waters are out of reach for practical purposes, so you have to invest in a cluster of fisheries in Cheshire, a couple of hours' drive and more away, in order to fish the river nearby? Not fish the river? Guest it, at risk? What do anglers do in those areas where the big clubs divide up the waters? It's this type of anomaly, amongst other things, that gives me concern about big clubs collecting waters far from their main "base" of fishing.

UOTE]

Join Montgomery Angling Association for £40 a year?

Not sure if Newtown club is still going, but it also had waters on the Severn and lakes in the area. Some free fishing on the Severn at Newtown as well.
Plenty of water for everyone.

 

[Jim Crosskey 2]

I was in Salford recently visiting my Daughter who has moved there whilst GP training.

There was quite a bit in the local paper about canal fishing now being available to locals again. Wish I had taken more notice. Looked around the Quays that apparently had some big carp that now seem to have disappeared.

Ate at Ryan Giggs restuarant. Not bad. Often seen running along the Canal by all accounts.

Anyway. Two local Clubs one on Severn one on Warks Avon. Total outlay for OAP......£35 per year.

Also member of BAA. Great value and great waters. Helps me get around to more distant waters for a change.

Also Ross club (Wye) less than £100 and wait list with easier access for locals.


The bad news.

Wye and Usk. Taken waters from local clubs with great value memberships and cheap daytickets.
Basically IMO wiping out the competition so they can benefit. Prices per day more than some clubs joining fees.

Real bandits under the guise of helping angling.

This has also led to individual owners hiking prices.

Just my opinion

Graham, I'm going play devil's advocate on behalf of WUF. I appreciate that paying £25 a day seems well over the going rate (especially if your local). However, that is a sum that many, many travelling anglers are prepared to pay (myself included) for the pleasure of fishing on those bits of the wye.

My point is, that's the going rate. It's an astonishing river that hardly any other fishing in the UK holds a candle to. You couldn't persuade anyone to part with £25 to fish for a day on the thames.

Now, as I understand it, there are still club sections - HDAA, Ross, Worcester, BAA(?) - and I'm not sure that WUF will ever prise those away from the clubs involved, providing the clubs involved maintain interest in those fisheries and also maintain the behaviour of their members.

I think some of the losses - where a club has lost a stretch - might have some of the scenarios that Sam Vines describes above.

My opinion, for what it's worth... is that you've probably reached an equilibrium with this now. It should be noticed, WUF lose stretches on a fairly regular basis too, perhaps when the owners realise it's not a land of milk and honey (and £s!).

 

[Molehill]

From a purely personal perspective, being a member of a large club(PAAS) makes sound sense.
Living here I am long distances from any coarse fishing rivers and most stillwaters (save a scattering of commercials), there certainly no coarse clubs nearby me, I doubt within 50 miles.

I travel 75-100 miles to reach my waters and now have a campervan to stop over and make the trips worthwhile, so have a choice of Severn, Wye, Teme in that distance with Upper Severn grayling or mid Severn barbel and everything in between.

Given the cost of a fishing trip, often 200 mile round trip, I would be daft not to fork out some extra money on joining a club with a complete choice of waters and fishing, plus a change of scenery.

The downside is I can't pop out for a quick few hours or evening and only manage a trip every few weeks. I have to spend my time pestering the local trout instead.