Frothey
Senior Member
That's because you have to be good at catching small fish if you live up there.....
Drennan cup
- Thread starter flightliner
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That's because you have to be good at catching small fish if you live up there.....
dezza
Well-known member
One thing I will say at this juncture is that there are far more skilfull anglers in the North of England than in the South. (Now I'm opening a can of worms).
I say this based on experiences that go back to the 60s where I knew many, including myself who travelled south to try for a few of the bigger fish that are found there.
Ray Webb used to travel to Southill Park for the big tench, Tag Barnes used to fish a great deal on the Upper Ouse and in Hampshire, and I could name many more. In many instances, anglers from the north outfished southerners. Tag Barnes often outfished Walker and the Taylor Brothers on the Ouse and Dorset Stour.
One very well known barbel specimen hunter of the South, came up to the Swale in Yorkshire and fished with Tag Barnes and myself for a few days. We put him in the best swims. He caught but one small barbel whilst we caught dozens.
On another occasion another very well known barbel angler was taken to fish the Tidal Trent. On seeing the enormity of the river, he threw his hands up in the air and drove home.
In the field of match angling it has been the northern anglers who have generally outperformed all the rest. In fact a very good friend of mine, and an ex-Sheffield match man tells me that many southerners were often afraid to head north as they knew they could never keep up.
He tells me of the southern match angler he met a little while ago in a Worksop tackle shop. This guy admitted that he had to work twice as hard to keep up with the locals in the north!
And it's the same thing with fly fishing. The better and more innovative fly fishers are found in the north. I will include the midlands here as this is the home of the great midlands reservoir fishermen. Bob Church and all those who followed him were Northampton men.
The reason for the superiority of the northern angler?
It's not so long ago that anglers in the north had to travel long distances to get good catches. An to get a decent catch out of a local water they had to work a heck of a lot harder.
Now in some cases the playing fields have been reversed. It is the northen anglers who has a lot more to go at compared with those in the south. This is specifically the case in terms of game fishing. Within a 50 miles radius of where I live I have more fly fishing waters than I can count, most of which can be fished for a very nominal club fee.
In the south, you need to lay out several thousand pounds to get what we have by outlaying only a couple of hundred.
I say this based on experiences that go back to the 60s where I knew many, including myself who travelled south to try for a few of the bigger fish that are found there.
Ray Webb used to travel to Southill Park for the big tench, Tag Barnes used to fish a great deal on the Upper Ouse and in Hampshire, and I could name many more. In many instances, anglers from the north outfished southerners. Tag Barnes often outfished Walker and the Taylor Brothers on the Ouse and Dorset Stour.
One very well known barbel specimen hunter of the South, came up to the Swale in Yorkshire and fished with Tag Barnes and myself for a few days. We put him in the best swims. He caught but one small barbel whilst we caught dozens.
On another occasion another very well known barbel angler was taken to fish the Tidal Trent. On seeing the enormity of the river, he threw his hands up in the air and drove home.
In the field of match angling it has been the northern anglers who have generally outperformed all the rest. In fact a very good friend of mine, and an ex-Sheffield match man tells me that many southerners were often afraid to head north as they knew they could never keep up.
He tells me of the southern match angler he met a little while ago in a Worksop tackle shop. This guy admitted that he had to work twice as hard to keep up with the locals in the north!
And it's the same thing with fly fishing. The better and more innovative fly fishers are found in the north. I will include the midlands here as this is the home of the great midlands reservoir fishermen. Bob Church and all those who followed him were Northampton men.
The reason for the superiority of the northern angler?
It's not so long ago that anglers in the north had to travel long distances to get good catches. An to get a decent catch out of a local water they had to work a heck of a lot harder.
Now in some cases the playing fields have been reversed. It is the northen anglers who has a lot more to go at compared with those in the south. This is specifically the case in terms of game fishing. Within a 50 miles radius of where I live I have more fly fishing waters than I can count, most of which can be fished for a very nominal club fee.
In the south, you need to lay out several thousand pounds to get what we have by outlaying only a couple of hundred.
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Mark Wintle
Well-known member
Everything you say is completely true, Ron, but it's 45 years out of date! Get real it's 2010 not 1965.
Match fishing has been declining since 1950 and there are probably ten times more ex match anglers still fishing than active ones most of whom (the active ones) are over 50. I wonder whether there will be any match fishing in ten years time; it's certainly becoming less and less relevant.
What no one has picked up on is that Terry Lampard is not only an extremely good angler but he also has an extraordinary knack of catching the biggest fish in a water. I saw a report yesterday that he'd just caught a big catfish (72-04) from a Dorset water and that it is the 2nd biggest in there. A bit like last summer when he set out to get a 6lb mullet and caught an 8 pounder.
Match fishing has been declining since 1950 and there are probably ten times more ex match anglers still fishing than active ones most of whom (the active ones) are over 50. I wonder whether there will be any match fishing in ten years time; it's certainly becoming less and less relevant.
What no one has picked up on is that Terry Lampard is not only an extremely good angler but he also has an extraordinary knack of catching the biggest fish in a water. I saw a report yesterday that he'd just caught a big catfish (72-04) from a Dorset water and that it is the 2nd biggest in there. A bit like last summer when he set out to get a 6lb mullet and caught an 8 pounder.
Graham Whatmore
Senior Member
I'm sorry Ron but you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think anglers are better just because they come from the north. Both north and south have there fair share of good anglers and each will beat the other on different days on different waters, the size of the fish they catch is irrelevant and to some extent is down to luck on the day. In a lake that holds tench to 14lb it doesn't mean the angler who catches a 13lb one is any less an angler just because he never caught the 14lb fish.
Your constant harking back to the 60's is the result somewhat over coloured memory and though they had a few good anglers in those days they also have anglers equally as good today only more of them and don't you dare bring RW into it because most modern anglers catch bigger and better fish than he could ever have dreamed of.
Your constant harking back to the 60's is the result somewhat over coloured memory and though they had a few good anglers in those days they also have anglers equally as good today only more of them and don't you dare bring RW into it because most modern anglers catch bigger and better fish than he could ever have dreamed of.
michael townsend
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Southern fishing's easy peasy
I like to drive down to fish the odd day each year to win a Drennen Cup award or three....
I like to drive down to fish the odd day each year to win a Drennen Cup award or three....
Morespiders
Senior Member
Ohh, you are a cheeky thing Mr Townsend
dezza
Well-known member
And with Mike's comment I rest my case.
Graham Marsden
Editor Emeritus
Surely there is no denying that if you live in the locality of the top waters in the south then you have a distinct advantage over someone who lives in the north of England.
The expense alone of a northerner fishing a couple of nights a week and weekends in the south (as a local can easily do) rather makes "if you want it enough" a secondary consideration.
People who are at the top in all other sports are probably professionals. Or are you saying that such big fish competitions as the Drennan and Fox should only be patronised by paid and sponsored anglers?
I think that would somewhat defeat the ethic that prompted the original idea of such big fish competitions.
I understand that big fish competitions can never be equal for all, but at least those who judge them could level the playing field to some extent by taking into consideration where the fish were caught.
flightliner
Well-known member
Graham, whenever I vote I generally look at the list of potential winners and divide them up into north, south,east and west,then make my choice. There are some years when I make exceptions if I think it deserving.
Gary Newman
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Graham,
I'm not saying that these competitions should only be open to sponsored anglers, but by their nature a lot of the anglers who regularly feature are sponsored in some way, mainly because these are the people who've caught consistently over the years.
We might have good waters in the south but it is still necessary to travel unless you want to sit on the same places every season. For example I've driven a 270 mile round trip for an overnight session on the Severn in-between work before.
Look at how many miles Phil Smith clocked up that season when he caught all his doubles from different rivers, fishing all over the country.
Personally i don't have to worry too much about the Fox or Drennan as i can't enter either of them anyway!
I'm not saying that these competitions should only be open to sponsored anglers, but by their nature a lot of the anglers who regularly feature are sponsored in some way, mainly because these are the people who've caught consistently over the years.
We might have good waters in the south but it is still necessary to travel unless you want to sit on the same places every season. For example I've driven a 270 mile round trip for an overnight session on the Severn in-between work before.
Look at how many miles Phil Smith clocked up that season when he caught all his doubles from different rivers, fishing all over the country.
Personally i don't have to worry too much about the Fox or Drennan as i can't enter either of them anyway!
Mark Wintle
Well-known member
The problem is that North South East West means nothing. A Dorset 7lb tench is very rare - yet 2 miles over the border into Hampshire and there are waters with tench to 12lbs (catching them is a different matter though!). A Cornish 4lb chub probably ranks better than Yorkshire 6lber, yet a Throop angler wouldn't even weigh a 4lb chub. Some anglers have seen relative values distorted by heavily managed waters like Marsh Farm and Sway. Those waters could just as easily be created in the right parts of the North and do equally well (Yorkshire Wolds?), after all Hornsea Mere was one of the finest roach waters in history.
Some of the fish winning Drennan awards are so big that even what most of us still call fish of a lifetime that we still aspire to no longer win prizes. I looked through the last 6 weeks of the season in AT and one week a 5-02 perch won yet a 5-04 perch didn't. 7lb chub get reported but don't win prizes - you need an 8lber. All I can say is thank God I still get pleasure catching a 3lber.
michael townsend
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Sometimes anglers don't win prizes with fish larger than others because they will have won an award off the same water with a similar fish. I suppose that's a good thing that stops people winning constantly, catching the same fish from the same water. An example of that happening this season was when Dai Gribble caught a 3.2 roach from Linch that won an award. A couple of weeks later he caught a 3.7 that didn't win.
I'd love somebody to try and do something similar to Sway or Marsh Farm up here Mark. I suppose the closest we have got is Alderfen. The only problem with doing that up here is that our northern cormorants are far better at catching fish than your southern impersonators...
I'd love somebody to try and do something similar to Sway or Marsh Farm up here Mark. I suppose the closest we have got is Alderfen. The only problem with doing that up here is that our northern cormorants are far better at catching fish than your southern impersonators...
Steve Spiller
Well-known member
Excuses excuses.................pft...
flightliner
Well-known member
Sorry but I think it is everything. Travelling from Hampshire to Dorset rivers is pretty much like me travelling from one side of Sheffield to the other, perhaps another hour (?) may get me into cornwall, The point is that they are all southern waters. Nationwide you try the hard fish starved waters of the north west or north east where big fish waters are as rare as the proverbial rocking horse --o! not many calcium rich waters up here and what there are (east yorkshire) to the best of my knowledge tend to be syndicated trout waters. Try the peat rich waters north of me and you may get homesick pretty quickly. Some eight or nine years ago one contender was up for the award who hailed from wearside on account of him doing some (two I think) barbel just over ten lbs from a local river.He got my number one vote above others that were doing seemingly better on the "circuit waters".
For what its worth, as I said earlier on this thread the competition would be far fairer if it went regional, four winners,decided by all award winners , then as someone said , let the general readership decide who is the champian of their choosing, after all it is their paper.
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Steve Spiller
Well-known member
Rather than a North South divide or a regional criteria, how about it being based firstly on the percentage of the river, lake, canal record, then all other circumstances of the capture being taken into account?
Mark highlighted the differences between the Stour and Hampshire Avon, the same circumstances could occur within a 'region'. If it was firstly based on the percentage of the 'venue' record this would even out the differences.
Just a thought.....
Mark highlighted the differences between the Stour and Hampshire Avon, the same circumstances could occur within a 'region'. If it was firstly based on the percentage of the 'venue' record this would even out the differences.
Just a thought.....
flightliner
Well-known member
What was it the man said-- Dont bring me problems, bring me solutions--- nice one Steve, any more ??
Steve Spiller
Well-known member
Not realy mate, the trouble is some 'small' fish could win it and that wouldn't help to sell the paper. Some anglers might not understand the significance of a 'smaller' fish winning it.
Mark Wintle
Well-known member
England is a bigger place than some of us imagine! I live on the south coast just about half way between Land's End and the eastern tip of Kent. Nottingham is closer than either of those two places, and in the case of Cornwall quicker to get to.
Let's be honest competitions like the Fox Award and Drennan Cup are subjective. The vast majority of anglers don't know about them let alone care about them. They exist to help the papers get reports of the biggest fish and always have, always will and why not? There is bound to be a bias according to water availability and living in the right place doesn't necessarily mean you can fish the waters - plenty of syndicate and extremely private waters around here too.
When the Shakespeare Matchman of the year award was in its heyday (now Kamasan) the venues with the big fields weren't in Dorset! They were the canals, Trent, Witham, Nene etc. 20 years ago I did 400 mile trips for big matches (mainly connected to Nationals and practicing for them) but that;s part of the adventure of angling. I don't do it now but it was exciting at the time even if I knew we were mostly pools fodder.
I specialise in hybrids now which don't have specimen awards (hold a few records mind!) but at least you never know what you'll catch...
Personally I think Mike Townsend should move to Ringwood - don't see why there should be a problem, one of our posties is called 'Yorkie' so no prizes for where he comes from, wear shorts even in the ice and snow.
Let's be honest competitions like the Fox Award and Drennan Cup are subjective. The vast majority of anglers don't know about them let alone care about them. They exist to help the papers get reports of the biggest fish and always have, always will and why not? There is bound to be a bias according to water availability and living in the right place doesn't necessarily mean you can fish the waters - plenty of syndicate and extremely private waters around here too.
When the Shakespeare Matchman of the year award was in its heyday (now Kamasan) the venues with the big fields weren't in Dorset! They were the canals, Trent, Witham, Nene etc. 20 years ago I did 400 mile trips for big matches (mainly connected to Nationals and practicing for them) but that;s part of the adventure of angling. I don't do it now but it was exciting at the time even if I knew we were mostly pools fodder.
I specialise in hybrids now which don't have specimen awards (hold a few records mind!) but at least you never know what you'll catch...
Personally I think Mike Townsend should move to Ringwood - don't see why there should be a problem, one of our posties is called 'Yorkie' so no prizes for where he comes from, wear shorts even in the ice and snow.
michael townsend
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Yorkie dresses like that because he'll be red hot down there. It only just gets above freezing here, and that's in the summer!
If I sold up and moved to Ringwood I could just about afford to buy a 6' by 4' shed. The good thing is with all the Drennans and Fox's I'd win, not to mention all the tackle companies desperate to have me endorsing their goods, I'd soon move up in the world.
Nice piece in CAT Mark. I look for the blue sheen on big roach too, though in clear waters in the summer they tend to have a bronze sheen to them. All the big roach from Linch had that blue sheen, though it rarely comes out in photos.
Did you see the pics in AT a few weeks ago of the same roach / rudd hybrid? An obvious hybrid in one pic, but a certain roach in the other. Just goes to show that you can't tell by pics alone.
If I sold up and moved to Ringwood I could just about afford to buy a 6' by 4' shed. The good thing is with all the Drennans and Fox's I'd win, not to mention all the tackle companies desperate to have me endorsing their goods, I'd soon move up in the world.
Nice piece in CAT Mark. I look for the blue sheen on big roach too, though in clear waters in the summer they tend to have a bronze sheen to them. All the big roach from Linch had that blue sheen, though it rarely comes out in photos.
Did you see the pics in AT a few weeks ago of the same roach / rudd hybrid? An obvious hybrid in one pic, but a certain roach in the other. Just goes to show that you can't tell by pics alone.
Graham Whatmore
Senior Member
In the great scheme of things does it really matter who wins the Drennan cup, does anyone other than the potential winners even bother about it? I know when I was an AT regular I merely glanced at the headline but rarely bothered to read it, the only name that stuck in my mind was Alan Wilson (was that his name) and only then because it was constantly splattered over their pages so it was a wee bit subliminal.
If they must have one I would agree, without really caring, that it would be far better to have a four region winner that is then put to the paper vote. The selection of regions isn't really a problem at all they would be - South, The Midlands, South west and South east, No need to include the north because northerners don't catch big fish mainly because there aren't any big fish in the north to catch :wh
I, like most anglers, have never been good enough or lucky enough to catch big fish let alone catch them regularly but even had I done so I very much doubt I would have rung the AT to announce said capture. I might remember it forever, in fact I probably would but put it in the papers? Nah! I don't think so, in the unlikely event of my having a piccy of it (I never carry a camera other than my mobile phone) I might be tempted to put it on here if only to initiate another "is it a hybrid" debate.
If they must have one I would agree, without really caring, that it would be far better to have a four region winner that is then put to the paper vote. The selection of regions isn't really a problem at all they would be - South, The Midlands, South west and South east, No need to include the north because northerners don't catch big fish mainly because there aren't any big fish in the north to catch :wh
I, like most anglers, have never been good enough or lucky enough to catch big fish let alone catch them regularly but even had I done so I very much doubt I would have rung the AT to announce said capture. I might remember it forever, in fact I probably would but put it in the papers? Nah! I don't think so, in the unlikely event of my having a piccy of it (I never carry a camera other than my mobile phone) I might be tempted to put it on here if only to initiate another "is it a hybrid" debate.