mikench
Well-known member
Amazing that a discussion about spade end hooks can enliven anything. ???
Eyed or spade?
- Thread starter Regalis
- Start date
Dare I say the reason the thread livened up a bit is because someone (cough cough) stuck thier neck out a little to challenge some of the preconceived ideas about spades.
However a lot of people play it safer nowadays than they did in the early days of FM (I don’t blame them, I do too) as you risk, first, getting flak & second, looking silly if you cannot back up your ideas with some sort of logic or reasonable argument.
The fact is that its very easy to roll out the tried and trusted responses to the usual questions or stick to safe ground on subjects, for example .....waxing lyrical about pins or trotting a float, its being there not catching that matters, weights not important, anything related to Carp is bad etc etc but it does make it all a bit dull at times.
We miss a few Ron Clay types I think who were not worried about stirring it up a bit and had a thick skin. It’s a shame some of the feature writers don’t “muck in” on the open forum from time to time as that would spark lively threads as well. I dont think anyones expecting them to jump in on every thread but from time to time I think would make a huge difference, however it does not appear to be part of their job description unfortunately.
However a lot of people play it safer nowadays than they did in the early days of FM (I don’t blame them, I do too) as you risk, first, getting flak & second, looking silly if you cannot back up your ideas with some sort of logic or reasonable argument.
The fact is that its very easy to roll out the tried and trusted responses to the usual questions or stick to safe ground on subjects, for example .....waxing lyrical about pins or trotting a float, its being there not catching that matters, weights not important, anything related to Carp is bad etc etc but it does make it all a bit dull at times.
We miss a few Ron Clay types I think who were not worried about stirring it up a bit and had a thick skin. It’s a shame some of the feature writers don’t “muck in” on the open forum from time to time as that would spark lively threads as well. I dont think anyones expecting them to jump in on every thread but from time to time I think would make a huge difference, however it does not appear to be part of their job description unfortunately.
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mikench
Well-known member
I still don’t sleep at night worrying about Mr Bailey and his leg spasms.
Well, not really, Mike - it's the details that make things interesting.
It always stimulates discussion when some suggest what others do - in fishing - is "scientifically" proven to be wrong.
I'm in the middle of a fantastically interesting tome on brain lateralisation - left and right hemispheres, what they each contribute and so on.
In fishing, as in life, we need both left, tuned to attend to the parts, data, quantity, the known and defined, and the right, seeing the bigger picture, bringing insight and intuition, fluidity, open-endedness. Both necessary and complementary.
But as Peter said, nice to discuss rather than just contradict.
rayner
Well-known member
I'm with you Kev, I have dropped all the hook link boxes in favour of foam disks. I have more hooks than ever in boxes that stay at home,
I only take five of any hooks I am to use, five for extra insurance. Not that I lose any apart from if they blunt like some do.
I had a period where I was in favour of eyed hooks, now I have reverted back to spades. Eyes for bomb, method or paste.
I have set patterns of hooks using either Gamakatsu or Kamasan. Gamas for bomb, method or paste, Kamasan or Colmic for float.
I prefer light lines for all my fishing that has hardly ever failed, if it has failed it was down to me. Light lines are easy for me to use with soft rods coupled with Maxima main lines.
I only take five of any hooks I am to use, five for extra insurance. Not that I lose any apart from if they blunt like some do.
I had a period where I was in favour of eyed hooks, now I have reverted back to spades. Eyes for bomb, method or paste.
I have set patterns of hooks using either Gamakatsu or Kamasan. Gamas for bomb, method or paste, Kamasan or Colmic for float.
I prefer light lines for all my fishing that has hardly ever failed, if it has failed it was down to me. Light lines are easy for me to use with soft rods coupled with Maxima main lines.
Snap - all my light waggler reel lines of 1.5 -3lb are Maxima, even though, to my eyes, it's a different colour these days.
I've liked the Gamakatsu hooks I've tried, but they're not so common in the shops, I find.
Does this ring a bell: I used to really like, for small fish/canal a hook like this - blued, long shank, fine wire, narrowish gape, crystal bend. I think it was Mustad or VMC. I'm talking something like 1979 here!
rayner
Well-known member
My tackle shop has a limited supply of Gamakatsu hooks, all barbed so not what I can use. Both Gamas and Colmic have to come off the web. Gamakatsu power carp come from the shop.
Of course with buying online comes postage, I'd rather pay the postage to get what I want rather than have alternatives that I would not be comfortable with.
Sorry, Kev my knowledge of hooks was lost with all other things from my earlier times, from around the late nineties after my troubles. Mustad hooks that I used in the 60s and beyond I just can not remember. 1979 is in the time frame mentioned.
Of course with buying online comes postage, I'd rather pay the postage to get what I want rather than have alternatives that I would not be comfortable with.
Sorry, Kev my knowledge of hooks was lost with all other things from my earlier times, from around the late nineties after my troubles. Mustad hooks that I used in the 60s and beyond I just can not remember. 1979 is in the time frame mentioned.
Quite understandable - I can't remember and I'm the one who liked them!
For what it’s worth – Go to a Japanese (or Korean or Chinese or other Asian for that matter) hook manufacturer (actual factory not a trader) and see for yourself. Spade ends are easier to make in a wider range of wire gauges than eyed hooks. Eyed hooks need to be formed around a pin and the pin MUST be thinner than the wire gauge of the hook. Why ? Because…………when you have 100,000 of the little blighters all together on a tray points will go inside eyes. If the eye is formed around a substantial, larger diameter pin (so as to stop the pin bending under pressure) then you are going to have the worlds biggest steel Hedgehog. Now try sorting those out for tempering, plating, coating and then…………….hand counting !!! No such problem with spades. The eye is formed by ‘blades’ pushing in and ‘crimping’ the eye closed at stages. Spades are forged in one go.
Spades have been more popular than eyed for decades because there were far more types & patterns to choose from. Back in the late 70’s when I worked in a tackle shop if you wanted a decent gauge 18, 20 or 22 (which was very normal) you had to buy a spade. Sure you could get small Goldstrike etc but look how thick & heavy they were – for a reason. Look how awful the points were. A 22 to 1.1 was the normal Chub hooklength on the float. We stepped up to 1.7lb on the Feeder !
There are some small eyed hooks available now but they are far heavier & thicker than the majority of available spade ends.
Popularity of spades just came down to ease of manufacture providing us with a wider variety of choice. However…………………………eyed outsell spades anyway because the biggest sellers are 14’s & 12’s !
Spades have been more popular than eyed for decades because there were far more types & patterns to choose from. Back in the late 70’s when I worked in a tackle shop if you wanted a decent gauge 18, 20 or 22 (which was very normal) you had to buy a spade. Sure you could get small Goldstrike etc but look how thick & heavy they were – for a reason. Look how awful the points were. A 22 to 1.1 was the normal Chub hooklength on the float. We stepped up to 1.7lb on the Feeder !
There are some small eyed hooks available now but they are far heavier & thicker than the majority of available spade ends.
Popularity of spades just came down to ease of manufacture providing us with a wider variety of choice. However…………………………eyed outsell spades anyway because the biggest sellers are 14’s & 12’s !
sam vimes
Well-known member
I'm struggling to understand where the idea that spades are popular comes from. Is the notion backed up by sales figures? Everything I see in the tackle shops I frequent suggests the opposite. If I venture to one of the shops located on, or near to, the local commies, or any shop with a carp/specialist bias, you may struggle to believe that spade end hooks are available at all. Only the shops that primarily cater for the match and river (non-specialist) anglers carry reasonable choices of spade end hooks in my part of the world. However, the number of spade patterns stocked appears to have reduced over the years, as has the choice of flowing water floats. Sadly, I find that I'm becoming increasingly reliant on internet shops for spade end hooks, especially if I want anything unusual, or something from other than the usual suspect brands.
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That's all interesting news to me, so thanks. It explains a lot about ease of manufacture and availability. Just saw Chris's post, and I've usually had the opposite impression - there was a wall display in my local ts so big that rather than explain to the guy behind the counter you'd like the barbless xyz in 18's and 20's, that's the one's in the green packet, no, the light green, you'd nip round and pick them off yourself. And the bulk of these were spades. Of course, commercials have given great popularity to eyed for various hair-rig presentations and I see far more about these days.
But, there still remains the issue of which, if either, is superior for a given context, particularly light line finesse fishing with bait on the hook not a hair, and that's not an issue that turns on history and availability. I favour spades for all my lighter line fishing, and find no problems that make me consider changing. It may not be the usual thing, but there's no intrinsic reason why the cheaper to produce design should not also be as good or better in use, if users can be bothered to master the knots that work.
mikench
Well-known member
If hooks to nylon are manufactured by machine, it seems obvious to me that spade end would be far easier to mechanise and produce.
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Historical popularity. With commercials and carp eyed inevitably outsell spades now. Bigger and thicker/heavier outsell smaller/lighter.
Tied by hand
Problem is getting 2 identical small sized hooks one with an eye and one with a spade. Nearest I can think of is B520 and B525 but even they are different. If small, light eyed hooks were available 30, 40 years ago I suspect we would have been using them anyway. But we didn't have the choices. Would an eyed B511 size 20 be inferior to a spade B511 size 20 ? It would be a fraction of a fraction heavier.
sam vimes
Well-known member
Thanks for the clarification. It wasn't obvious that you meant x years ago. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that spades haven't been more popular than eyed in this millennium. It appears to go hand in hand with the rise in popularity of carp filled match commies and specialist/carp angling. I'd even go as far as to wonder whether spades will still be available in another twenty to thirty years.
I get your point, but it's not really a problem for me, and I suspect for you. It's only a debating point because some like to claim that the spades I like to use, and which work perfectly well for what I do, aren't as good as hypothetical eyed equivalents that don't exist! The market, shaped though it is by ease of manufacture and changes in fishing styles eg commercial use, caters now for fans of both, so the problem is......?
It may change, as Chris suggests, but looking in my boxes and drawers, I'll have enough to last me out
It may change, as Chris suggests, but looking in my boxes and drawers, I'll have enough to last me out
Mark Wintle
Well-known member
I seem to remember that the first hooks to nylon I encountered circa 1963/4 were all silk-whipped with serrated shanks. By the late 60s spade-ends took over, and I can remember not being able to buy loose spade-ends in my local shops so used to send off to Dawson's of Sheffield for Mustad loose hooks.
Some traditional spade ends sell very well - e.g. Super Spades. Others - smaller/lighter hooks - not so. Barbless generally outsell barbed. No surprise. What distorts figures is loose hooks to tie yourself and pre-tied. Some loose hooks are very poor sellers but the pre-tied versions are excellent (e.g. Carp Method).
Carbon Chub. Great hook - in it's day. Very, very popular. Discontinued. Why ? Didn't sell any more. Sad but true.
Carbon Chub. Great hook - in it's day. Very, very popular. Discontinued. Why ? Didn't sell any more. Sad but true.