F
Fred Bonney
Guest
Jerry, can you steer us in the direction of the scientificresearch please?
Mr Cholmondeley-Corker (PaSC)
Senior Member
AMY HAS CLEARLY GIVEN UP!
Typical of someone with no substance to their argument.
Typical of someone with no substance to their argument.
Ray Roberts
Well-known member
Not home on the school bus yet?
P
Phillips Jerry
Guest
We are talking about 15 years ago ,
Keith M
Well-known member
6years - It was Amy that resurected this thread anyway wasn't it?
Never mindat least itbought the report to the attention of many who didn't know about it or had forgotten about it. /forum/smilies/smile_smiley.gif
Never mindat least itbought the report to the attention of many who didn't know about it or had forgotten about it. /forum/smilies/smile_smiley.gif
P
Phillips Jerry
Guest
Sorry someoneat the door. Resarch was found by a Mr Brady who was the chairman of N.M, club at the time early to mid nineties he is no longer listed in my yellow pages,but the last i heard of him he was fishing the Avon above Ringwood. I am trying to find out if he published any of the findings in N.M,club newsletter.I can feel the knives being sharpened as I write this. Has anyone else heard of chemical warning being realeased by fish ?
coelacanth
Well-known member
It's called schreckstoff. A quick google will reveal much information.
F
Fred Bonney
Guest
People seem to think that released chub have a warning mechanism,I'm not convinced though.
Which is why I asked.
Which is why I asked.
W
Wolfman Woody
Guest
Truth about P*TA -
<object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0" width="425" height="350"><param name="src" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/NAt1z_TgPQ4" /><param name="width" value="425" /><param name="height" value="350" /><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://www.youtube.com/v/NAt1z_TgPQ4" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>
<object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0" width="425" height="350"><param name="src" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/eqlF2rvcYIs" /><param name="width" value="425" /><param name="height" value="350" /><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://www.youtube.com/v/eqlF2rvcYIs" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>
<object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0" width="425" height="350"><param name="src" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/KsMjgnLxFRw" /><param name="width" value="425" /><param name="height" value="350" /><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://www.youtube.com/v/KsMjgnLxFRw" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>
<object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0" width="425" height="350"><param name="src" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/hgZ0dSiTGdI" /><param name="width" value="425" /><param name="height" value="350" /><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://www.youtube.com/v/hgZ0dSiTGdI" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>
<object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0" width="425" height="350"><param name="src" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/NAt1z_TgPQ4" /><param name="width" value="425" /><param name="height" value="350" /><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://www.youtube.com/v/NAt1z_TgPQ4" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>
<object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0" width="425" height="350"><param name="src" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/eqlF2rvcYIs" /><param name="width" value="425" /><param name="height" value="350" /><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://www.youtube.com/v/eqlF2rvcYIs" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>
<object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0" width="425" height="350"><param name="src" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/KsMjgnLxFRw" /><param name="width" value="425" /><param name="height" value="350" /><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://www.youtube.com/v/KsMjgnLxFRw" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>
<object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0" width="425" height="350"><param name="src" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/hgZ0dSiTGdI" /><param name="width" value="425" /><param name="height" value="350" /><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://www.youtube.com/v/hgZ0dSiTGdI" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>
W
Wolfman Woody
Guest
<blockquote class=quoteheader>Phillips Jerry wrote (see)</blockquote><blockquote class=quote>Has anyone else heard of chemical warning being realeased by fish ?</blockquote>
Yes, but maybe it's not always the case. I have more than once witnessed a hooked carp being pulled to the net and three or more other fish were following it.
Were these other fish trying to help? I don't think so. I think maybe they thought that the hooked fish was into some special food and the others thought there might be some in it for them. This also happens with mackerel feathering - you catch one mackerel and leave the feathers stationary in the water and other mackerel take the other feathers.
There are many other examples, but if you don't think this is so, explain that behaviour.
Yes, but maybe it's not always the case. I have more than once witnessed a hooked carp being pulled to the net and three or more other fish were following it.
Were these other fish trying to help? I don't think so. I think maybe they thought that the hooked fish was into some special food and the others thought there might be some in it for them. This also happens with mackerel feathering - you catch one mackerel and leave the feathers stationary in the water and other mackerel take the other feathers.
There are many other examples, but if you don't think this is so, explain that behaviour.
Greg Whitehead
Well-known member
This is all so much b*****s.
We know that fish don't feel pain, it's not something we delude ourselves about in order to justify continuing fishing. Being hooked, played, landed and released does cause fish stress (but not pain) and as responsible anglers we are always seeking to minimise that stress. I have yet to witness any fish harmed by its capture (even those caughtby completely inexperienced anglersusing the wrong gear and no mat) to a greater extent than itwould beduringthe natural spawning process (barring those veryfew that are occasional fatalities as a consequenceof deep-hooking - primarily perch and eels in my experience).
I've caught fish with grotesque bleeding holes in them caused by spawning, flooding or some other non-angling-related event, damage which I can hardly believed the fish could survive, and yet that fish had been behaving and feeding perfectly normally at the time of capture. One Nene barbel had a hole in its belly the size of my hand and I couldn't get it back in the water fast enough because I was convinced it might die on me. Contrary to that concernI caught the same fish almost three weeks later andits wound was 80 per cent healed.
What we need to do is convince people we know what we're talking about.Fish aren't like humans, they're not even mammals! We're talking about a cold-blooded creature which suffers a sensory shutdown in cold water so severe it can hardly hear, see or feel anything. People need to be taught to ditch their anthropomorphic, Finding Nemo dellusions. Fish evolved 350m years ago and haven't changed much in basic body design since. They're nothing like us. We've more in common with ET than with afish. Angling's job should be to make people recognise this and the fact that if it weren't for anglers no one would protect aquatic habitats nationwide. So far we're nowhere close to achieving this though. It's something the Beeb could and shouldhelp us with if it weren't so busy crawling up PETA's backside!
We know that fish don't feel pain, it's not something we delude ourselves about in order to justify continuing fishing. Being hooked, played, landed and released does cause fish stress (but not pain) and as responsible anglers we are always seeking to minimise that stress. I have yet to witness any fish harmed by its capture (even those caughtby completely inexperienced anglersusing the wrong gear and no mat) to a greater extent than itwould beduringthe natural spawning process (barring those veryfew that are occasional fatalities as a consequenceof deep-hooking - primarily perch and eels in my experience).
I've caught fish with grotesque bleeding holes in them caused by spawning, flooding or some other non-angling-related event, damage which I can hardly believed the fish could survive, and yet that fish had been behaving and feeding perfectly normally at the time of capture. One Nene barbel had a hole in its belly the size of my hand and I couldn't get it back in the water fast enough because I was convinced it might die on me. Contrary to that concernI caught the same fish almost three weeks later andits wound was 80 per cent healed.
What we need to do is convince people we know what we're talking about.Fish aren't like humans, they're not even mammals! We're talking about a cold-blooded creature which suffers a sensory shutdown in cold water so severe it can hardly hear, see or feel anything. People need to be taught to ditch their anthropomorphic, Finding Nemo dellusions. Fish evolved 350m years ago and haven't changed much in basic body design since. They're nothing like us. We've more in common with ET than with afish. Angling's job should be to make people recognise this and the fact that if it weren't for anglers no one would protect aquatic habitats nationwide. So far we're nowhere close to achieving this though. It's something the Beeb could and shouldhelp us with if it weren't so busy crawling up PETA's backside!
P
Phillips Jerry
Guest
This was the piont I was trying to make, pain no but a form ofdistress because of chemical warning release.
coelacanth
Well-known member
<blockquote class=quoteheader>Woody (the Moaning Marlow Meldrew) wrote (see)</blockquote><blockquote class=quote>
Yes, but maybe it's not always the case. I have more than once witnessed a hooked carp being pulled to the net and three or more other fish were following it.
Were these other fish trying to help? I don't think so. I think maybe they thought that the hooked fish was into some special food and the others thought there might be some in it for them. </blockquote>
If during late Spring/Summer it could be that the three followers were male, and the hooked fish was a female(a juiced up male will follow almost anything to be honest). It could have been that the hooked fish was regurgitating recently-ingested food and the other fish were reacting to this (seen this with chub, no reason why carp would be any different, they are no smarter than any other fish in spite of the crap talked about them). Could also have been a form ofhazard-observation (predator-observation is a known behaviour in many fish, nothing to do with cognitive behaviour, purely instinctive).<blockquote class=quoteheader>Woody (the Moaning Marlow Meldrew) wrote (see)</blockquote><blockquote class=quote><blockquote class=quote>This also happens with mackerel feathering - you catch one mackerel and leave the feathers stationary in the water and other mackerel take the other feathers.</blockquote></blockquote>
Mackies, like most organisms,are probably "programmed" to do nomore than they needto escape predators and feed enough to grow to the point where they can breed successfully. Having no concept of hooks or angling, as long as enough "food" signals are going out and few enough "hazard" signals, another Mackerel on a feather probably looks more like one that is feeding than anything else, which would trigger the feeding response in the others.
Yes, but maybe it's not always the case. I have more than once witnessed a hooked carp being pulled to the net and three or more other fish were following it.
Were these other fish trying to help? I don't think so. I think maybe they thought that the hooked fish was into some special food and the others thought there might be some in it for them. </blockquote>
If during late Spring/Summer it could be that the three followers were male, and the hooked fish was a female(a juiced up male will follow almost anything to be honest). It could have been that the hooked fish was regurgitating recently-ingested food and the other fish were reacting to this (seen this with chub, no reason why carp would be any different, they are no smarter than any other fish in spite of the crap talked about them). Could also have been a form ofhazard-observation (predator-observation is a known behaviour in many fish, nothing to do with cognitive behaviour, purely instinctive).<blockquote class=quoteheader>Woody (the Moaning Marlow Meldrew) wrote (see)</blockquote><blockquote class=quote><blockquote class=quote>This also happens with mackerel feathering - you catch one mackerel and leave the feathers stationary in the water and other mackerel take the other feathers.</blockquote></blockquote>
Mackies, like most organisms,are probably "programmed" to do nomore than they needto escape predators and feed enough to grow to the point where they can breed successfully. Having no concept of hooks or angling, as long as enough "food" signals are going out and few enough "hazard" signals, another Mackerel on a feather probably looks more like one that is feeding than anything else, which would trigger the feeding response in the others.
Keith M
Well-known member
I remember reading about scent that shoal fishsecretedinto the water whenthey were alarmed which would alarm the rest of the shoal to danger. I can't remember where I read it though; I might even have seen it on a wildlife program on TV. I'm also sure that it mentioned a scent secreted by Heronsthrough their legs which either attracted fish orpossibly countered the fishes alarm scent (I cant remember).
I found this on the web, I havent had time to read it (Im at work) but it appears to mention these scents that fish secrete.
I found this on the web, I havent had time to read it (Im at work) but it appears to mention these scents that fish secrete.