Fishmeal in baits

Keith M

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At night these algae consume oxygen, but usually much less than was produced during the daylight. ... Blue-greens are poor oxygen producers with significant nighttime oxygen demands. They often exhibit population explosions and abrupt die-offs, also resulting in oxygen deficits.

Cyanobacteria may grow so fast (often called a “bloom”), that they turn entire shorelines green or rise to the surface in huge, stinking mats. ... Without sunlight, photosynthesis stops, which means no oxygen is released into the water.

When blooms of blue-green algae occur they interfere with other uses of the water, can affect human health and have far-reaching consequences for the environment and the economy. ... As the bloom subsides, the dead and decaying algae can reduce the oxygen levels in the water, causing stress or death to aquatic animals.

Keith
 
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fishface1

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That’s right Keith.

The worst thing a club/fishery can do if they have too much weed is to kill/remove it all in one go. This gives the algae (often B\G) the chance to bloom which in turn cuts out the light to the macrophages which would be taking up nutrients in the sediment. This leads to a see-sawing of oxygen levels - hyper saturated in the day, reduced at night, and the potential for significant fish kills if the B/G dies of suddenly.

Best thing is to reduce the nutrient input, be that by cutting off inlets that have run-off, or reducing biomass/bait in GW/contained lakes, and selectively remove weed if required.
 

Old fisher

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You are entitled to your opinion even if it's way off the beam, and it really is in this case.
I have and do fish waters that have never seen a boilie but have hyper weed growth and the characteristic they have in common…. they are all in arable areas!

There are also many trout waters up and down the country that have never seen a maggot, let alone a boilie and again they suffer hyper growth of weed, Gratham, Rutland, Farmoor and many, many more. Reason – land run off of NPK.
What most anglers fail to realise is boilies don’t just sit they on the bottom rotting away. They breakdown and are eaten by the invertebrates that live in the water and bottom sediment. Years ago, when I was fishing one mere I put in the edge in about 6 inches of water several types of bait groundbait, pellet, small 12 mm boilies, sweetcorn just before it went dark. Checking on the baits every two hours with a light to see how they were dissolving. The experiment wasn’t originally to see what ate the bait; it was to see how fast/slow they broke down.

I was shocked to see how many invertebrates were feeding on them. By morning the pellet, groundbait, had gone completely. Boilies were half eaten, sweetcorn had lost some of the internal pulp. I repeated that experiment on every mere I fished (15+) with much the same results. These day they call that Citizen Science experimentation.

When I went to university (Mature Student) to do my degree in Environmental Studies and Ecology, one of my tutors was Mike Dobson a renowned Freshwater/invertebrate scientist who oversaw my final dissertation. In a discussion we had I recounted to Mike the above experiments I’d done, and he was not surprised at all. In fact, he said based on his own work on river invertebrates leaf packs on the River Sett Derbyshire, he’d have expected it.

So based on both experiments his and mine it is very wrong to think boilies just sit there creating pollution and eutrophication. As I said above they add to the base load without doubt, but that addition is minuscule compared to what agricultural fertilisers do through run off.

Turning to the comments on oxygen (O) crashing by bait. Lets just establish the difference between weed and algae. Weed is a plant with a firm central stem. Algae is organism usual single celled. Weed gives off Oxygen during day light hours and Carbon dioxide (Co2) in the dark hours. It grows during the period of the year when light hours are far longer than dark. Therefore, the O levels given off are far greater because of it than the Co2. A weedy water is very unlikely if ever to have an O crash.

On the other hand, Algae robs O from the water and give nothing back other than Co2 as it dies and likely to have an O crash. The life cycle of algae is very short days and a few weeks at most.

Commercial and overstocked water are far more likely to have algal blooms and fish deaths through an O crash because the Biological Oxygen Demands (BOD) are vastly higher than they would be if they were stocked at a natural level. Natural level stocking is between 350lb to 450lbs per acre. Commercials are stocked at 800lb to 1000lbs + per acre. They are devoid of weed due to the type of species stocked, which root, grub out and eat it. They are also mainly devoid of invertebrates as fish stocked at the levels commies have, have eat them because they are constantly hungry.

To recap, weed puts O in the water, whereas algae takes O out of the water, putting in Co2 when it dies.
Highly over stocked waters such as many commercials have a far greater BOD because of the number, type of species stocked and lack of true weed growth.

Finally ground water, ground water comes in several forms deep underground springs bubbling up to the surface, the Water Table that rises and falls dependant on how much or how little is in the aquifers and Through Flow that is water movement through the top 1-2 metres of surface soil. Through Flow is the one that causes the greatest problems of eutrophication as it picks up the fertilizers that have been spread on the land and leached down into the soil.

I hope from the above “proven science” you now have a better understanding of how and why eutrophication, over enrichment call it what you want cases super weed growth and algae blooms. Rather than somebody’s Auntie Ethel anecdotal posting on Facebook or carp fever magazine.
OK
 

The bad one

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Nope didn't mishear him, it causes oxygen crashes when it dies (that's what I wrote) leading to fish deaths if it is not mitigated for. And where's the conflict between what I wrote and what you wrote, or for that matter what Keith has posted? There isn't one!
As to B/G to often it's misidentified even by the EA and Utilities companies. Just because it's green algae and has a blue tinge (and it can) as it dies off doesn't make it B/G. It needs a lab test to id it properly.
 

fishface1

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Just the bit that algae robs the water of O2 and gives nothing back.
 

The bad one

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The whole sentence read “Algae robs O from the water and give nothing back other than Co2 as it dies and likely to have an O crash.” I’ll concede I perhaps could have made what I wrote more explanatory clear. By writing, “algae when it dies becomes toxic, releasing Co2 and deoxygenating the waterbody. And if mitigating measures are not taken fish mortalities are more than likely to follow."

Are you prepared to rescind your comments re groundwater and acknowledge through flow carries fertilizers into enclosed waters? Or are you sticking to your point made re groundwater? Oh, and yes it was a long post but that’s the way the mop flops sometimes when you get into the science of things. Not everybody has the knowledge and understanding to follow a thread when it gets scientific. Therefore, it needs explaining so you take the reader with you.
 

fishface1

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Re groundwater - natural attenuation and adsorption normally reduces GW contamination. Purely GW fed water bodies, in many locations, won’t be contaminated by excessive nutrients. They can however become eutrophic. This can be caused by excess fishing bait. Your rather rude response to the OP suggesting it never happens is, to use your parlance, off beam.

Your points re invert eating the bait misses the point that the bait is artificially added to the water. It doesn’t have to be the bait breaking down that increases the nutrients directly, it can be the waste products of the artificially increased biomass.

This happens a lot in overstocked fishing lakes and can lead to the situations you correctly describe, with macrophytes (mostly rooted plants) being out competed for light and nutrients by algae, be they BG or otherwise.
 

The bad one

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Now you are just making it up and or you haven't read what I wrote. No I have not or did not say it never happened to the OP.
Oh and when did you become the policeman for FM. Is the OP not capable of answering for himself? As to missing the point I think you should look at your last post for that. The overall biomass of any water expands and subtracts on a regular basis dependant on the time of year, on life and death of the animals living in the water, etc as well you know or should do!
Oh and where is it you live? May be I can find you some papers that supports or contradicts your claim groundwater and waters in your area don't suffer from Through Flow. It would be a rear thing but hey stranger things have happened!
 

Old fisher

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TBO I did answer you with an OK. I can't boast of a High education as I only went to the university off life. I just use my eyes and my own reasoning. I have found that so called expert teachings, are not necessarily always correct. After all, if people always believed what they were told was correct we would all be scared to take a long walk in case we fell off the edge of the earth.
 

fishface1

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Ok….

So I could go through your “scientific” points in detail and pick you up on a number of other inaccuracies, but I won’t, as it would be rather like trying to discuss the entrenched views of a Flat-Earther or Anti-Vaxxer. Pointless.

I’ll just leave it by saying angler’s baits can/have/do lead to eutrophication.
 

Old fisher

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I think ff1 has a point and I will now leave this discussion, as I am not qualified to express an opinion on chemical analyses. I can only comment on what I have seen.
 

Old fisher

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Anglers still use potato today ,cut into slices similar to luncheon meat and punched out,
Covered with either coffee powder, chocolate powder or something like a glug,.
A good change of bait on commercials
Just to add a little about potato as a bait. If you add flavour and a little sweetener to the water and then boil them it works quit effectively. I did this for the first time about 20 years ago after watching my wife adding fresh mint and then boiling them. I thought if it made them taste good to me then why not the carp. I also caught tinkers and those wonderful smelly ones (bream). Strawberry and Banana seemed the best. Funny though, looking back on it now, I never did try mint
 

no-one in particular

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Just to add a little about potato as a bait. If you add flavour and a little sweetener to the water and then boil them it works quit effectively. I did this for the first time about 20 years ago after watching my wife adding fresh mint and then boiling them. I thought if it made them taste good to me then why not the carp. I also caught tinkers and those wonderful smelly ones (bream). Strawberry and Banana seemed the best. Funny though, looking back on it now, I never did try mint
I think you can flavor almost anything, a bit of cardboard would probably catch fish if it tasted and smelt right. I have found jam, fermented yeast, supermarket bread pastes especially the salmon or shrimp ones, garlic, chili powder, all effected on their day and for different species. Never tried them with cardboard though, I might even try it one day just for the hell of it.
 

Old fisher

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Actually Mark joking aside, in my early days of carp fishing in the 1970s, I found it quite exciting making up the baits and trying different ideas, What was really funny looking back at it now, was how everyone kept their recipes secret even if they never caught a fish on it Rod Hutchinson once sent me a flavour to try out but he did not name it. He just said in a letter that he had sent a number of anglers who used his milk protein base mixes the same to try out before it went into production. I caught a few carp on it the biggest only 11lb 4oz, small by todays standards but quite reasonable at the time. I never did find out what it was, but he used to give some of his flavours strange names so it could have been released. I will never know, now he's no longer with us. A very great angler and a very kind man. As I said somewhere in another post I still have two of his tea shirts he gave me at the time.
 
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no-one in particular

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Actually Mark joking aside, in my early days of carp fishing in the 1970s, I found it quite exciting making up the baits and trying different ideas, What was really funny looking back at it now, was how everyone kept their recipes secret even if they never caught a fish on it Rod Hutchinson once sent me a flavour to try out but he did not name it. He just said in a letter that he had sent a number of anglers who used his milk protein base mixes the same to try out before it went into production. I caught a few carp on it the biggest only 11lb 4oz, small by todays standards but quite reasonable at the time. I never did find out what it was, but he used to give some of his flavours strange names so it could have been released. I will never know, now he's no longer with us. Avery great angler and a very kind man. As I said somewhere in another post I still have two of his tea shirts he gave me at the time.
I used to work for a Tv company and the manager who ran one of the shops was an avid carp angler. He used to test some of Ron's stuff for him. he would mix some of it at the back of the shop when it was quiet and stunk the place out.
I have one secret bait, never seen it mentioned on any forum but it was deadly specially for carp, only my friend and I know of it and he died a few years ago so only I know of it now. I never use it now as it was also deadly for eels and I don't like them. Readily available in supermarkets and cheap. When and if I am typing on this forum while suddenly having a heart failure and it will be the last thing I ever type I might type it out just before I gasp out but, then again I might not!
 

Old fisher

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Don't tease me. that's very cruel ha! ha! ha!
P S Was it Marmite ?
 

Philip

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I have one secret bait, never seen it mentioned on any forum but it was deadly specially for carp, only my friend and I know of it and he died a few years ago so only I know of it now. I never use it now as it was also deadly for eels and I don't like them. Readily available in supermarkets and cheap. When and if I am typing on this forum while suddenly having a heart failure and it will be the last thing I ever type I might type it out just before I gasp out but, then again I might not!

Intriguing, although sadly the wrong target audience. I suspect people on FM would be more interested in a secret bait that avoided Carp.

You can send it as a PM to me as your last tap if you like ...although I have visions of being interviewed by the Police as to why your last dying action was to send me the word "Marmite" ;) :)
 
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