Grayling Blues

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I think snobbery and class is very much evident in angling still. A few weeks ago I went to visit a reservoir for no particular reason than I had never been there. Me and my mate who was driving wanted to go somewhere and it was a trip out in the country. I knew it had been a trout fishery once but did not know its present status. We pulled up into a car park and it said fly fishers club, the bailiff's cottage was on site and all heavily marked up with signs. I got out my mate stayed in the car as he was not interested but I wanted a look.
There were 4 people sitting beside a lake drinking coffee and one of them came over to me, looked like the bailiff, all aggressive and unwelcoming. Anyway to cut a long story short, I was not welcomed and told if I wanted to fish there look up the website. I was on best behavior and even stood upright off my knuckles but I think he noticed.
I did look up when I got home, £200 for 5 days fishing or £150 for 5 afternoons, boats extra. In June it was £250 and £200 respectively. It was a beautiful place the best in the southeast as advertised but only for the rich, not commoners.
To me there is something wrong in there somewhere; I cant quite put my finger on it, just a gut feeling.


I don't really get the point you are trying to make, Mark, apart from that you either wouldn't or couldn't afford that for some fishing, which is fair enough either way.
After all, the Bailiff pointed you in the direction of the website. Could he have been politer/friendlier? Probably.
But sure as eggs are eggs they won't want random people wandering around the fishery if for no other reason than health and safety.
 

fishface1

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Mark - how much do you spend on your working class beer and fags every month?
 

Philip

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Unless I am missing something we have a couple of stories about people wandering onto private land and being told so.

I don’t see what this has to do with social class or snobbery.
 

nottskev

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Unless I am missing something we have a couple of stories about people wandering onto private land and being told so.

I don’t see what this has to do with social class or snobbery.

Amazing. The dude/Duke I mentioned in my story owns, personally:
11,500 acres in Cheshire (where a little boy wanting to see the woodpeckers was chucked off by men with guns)
23,500 acres in Lancashire
96,000 acres in Scotland
300 acres - of Mayfair and Belgravia.

You don't see what it has to do with social class?
Yes, you're missing something.
 

Philip

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Interesting you should pick my post out of all the others Kev.

& no I dont see the link.

Are you suggesting that if the ownder was less rich they would have let you wander about freely ? ....or perhaps you considered your bird book as some sort of universal real estate pass identifying you as a bird watcher and not a vandal so they should have put a comforting arm round your shoulder and given you a guided tour of the estate ?
 

nottskev

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Interesting you should pick my post out of all the others Kev.

& no I dont see the link.

Are you suggesting that if the ownder was less rich they would have let you wander about freely ? ....or perhaps you considered your bird book as some sort of universal real estate pass identifying you as a bird watcher and not a vandal so they should have put a comforting arm round your shoulder and given you a guided tour of the estate ?
You mentioned "a couple of stories" and it was reasonable to assume mine might be one.
Thanks for the alternatives, But no. I think land ownership reform/ public access to land are in the broader national interest, as do many others who'd rather we went into the 21st century without a feudal mentality and with fewer anomalous fat cats controlling much of the ground beneath our feet. Nice sarcasm. though.
Do you live here, by the way? Just asking, as you seem to enjoy it when when people find their favourite fisheries degraded, and then gleefully tell us it's "market forces".

And before you ask, no I wouldn't want people trespassing on my 300 square metres of property, paid for with a lifetime's work, but do not think that supports the property rights of absentee owners with 150,000 acres left to them by daddy.

The link you couldn't see: he's a Duke. Could there be, unless he were a King, a more obvious exemplar of social class?
 
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John Aston

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No answers then, I will assume you have understood my post now and agree with me.
I understood your post clearly enough - it wasn't too mentally taxing , really. I didn't reply because I hosted an old friend for a day's fishing on a reassuringly expensive and very private piece of river. Hope that's ok with you ?
 

no-one in particular

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Oh dear ,let just clear my view point up a bit. I wouldn't go into private land unannounced or uninvited. I actually went to just see if there was some vantage point that I could overlook the reservoir to see if a could see any ospreys when they visited in the summer. But there was not one, you could not see anything from the road. This was a commercial place of fishing as indicated by the signs, there were no signs actually saying private or indeed any signs saying come in. My deduction from Fly Fishing Club, inquiries to bailiff, name and address given and just the fact that I was only an angler making inquiries did not make me think I would not be allowed to just enter and ask a few questions and have a look. Chancing my arm a bit maybe but an angler wanting to just recce a place would be accepted by most angling venues, I have done so many times in the past and have given no offence to anyone.
However, this was fly fishing! I am a polite person, well dressed, smart casual mostly, shave every day and am never rude to anyone or about anyone, have I ever been on here. I am too well brought up. I don't have a Mohican haircut or rings in my nose. Just a reasonably well behaved polite person. I was certainly not rude in any way on this occasion.
I only entered the place because I wanted to find out if I could visit to see ospreys and the fishing maybe. After I pulled up in the car park there was the bailiffs cottage to the left, a sign saying his name and all inquiries to him, I cannot remember all what it said.
I could see where the lake was although not on view, just over the little rise next to the car park. I took a walk to the top of it and then saw 4 people sat on a little bench 30 yds. away drinking tea or something. They saw me and I thought I would walk over and just ask. I was not disturbing them really as they weren't doing anything.
Mr. officious who was standing came over to me and met me half way. I told him why I came, I was local, I did a bit of fly fishing and just wanted to have a look and find out about it. His attitude was your not welcome, My lines of snobbish, money snobbish, fly fishing only snobbish and/or class snobbish may well be blurred, no denying that but I can only give you my take on it, that's what I felt it was, your not the sort we have here. If I had rolled up in a luxury car, got out wearing a £300 Barbour or something, pulled a card out introducing myself as Lord Black, I am sure he would have been all over me. Such is my view of this exclusive type of fishing, not everywhere and you can buy into if you have the money, many don't.
The question was does snobbery exist in angling, I think it does, and do I think it is wrong. I didn't say that, my exact words were "To me there is something wrong in there somewhere; I cant quite put my finger on it, just a gut feeling.". I think that comes from seeing just another beautiful place denied me.
PS I never got round to ask about the ospreys, I got the vibe and went.
Later when viewing the website and prices just endorsed my thoughts about it. If you don't agree with that fine, it's just I speak as I find as always.
 
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no-one in particular

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I understood your post clearly enough - it wasn't too mentally taxing , really. I didn't reply because I hosted an old friend for a day's fishing on a reassuringly expensive and very private piece of river. Hope that's ok with you ?
You still didn't answer my question so I will still assume you agree with me.
 

markcw

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Except the morons, cretins and knuckle draggers who fish commercials. They are just utter peasants.
flipping-off.gif

YOU LEAVE US COMMIE FISHERS ALONE ?
 

fishface1

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That's free. Is it where you learnt that the working class spend all their money on beer and fags? I missed that insight.

Are you telling me you don’t contribute to their excellent investigative journalism as requested by the pop-ups?

You may also have missed the slight tongue in cheek nature of the post….

“They” actually spend all “their” money on Sky subscriptions.
 

nottskev

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Are you telling me you don’t contribute to their excellent investigative journalism as requested by the pop-ups?

You may also have missed the slight tongue in cheek nature of the post….

“They” actually spend all “their” money on Sky subscriptions.

I bung them the occasional £50 (no kidding) to make up for not buying hard copies.
Who are "they"? Any statement with "They all..." is unlikely to be true. See, I don't read the paper for nothing.

* Unless it's "All land owners with 150,000 acres and the dearest bits of London should be doing more to support their country and countrymen.
 

fishface1

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Phew. Glad I didn’t say ‘they all’ then and just stuck to they.

I did say all their money though, which blatantly can’t be true, cos they’d have nothing left for booze and fags….
 

Philip

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You mentioned "a couple of stories" and it was reasonable to assume mine might be one.
Thanks for the alternatives, But no. I think land ownership reform/ public access to land are in the broader national interest, as do many others who'd rather we went into the 21st century without a feudal mentality and with fewer anomalous fat cats controlling much of the ground beneath our feet. Nice sarcasm. though.
Do you live here, by the way? Just asking, as you seem to enjoy it when when people find their favourite fisheries degraded, and then gleefully tell us it's "market forces".

And before you ask, no I wouldn't want people trespassing on my 300 square metres of property, paid for with a lifetime's work, but do not think that supports the property rights of absentee owners with 150,000 acres left to them by daddy.

The link you couldn't see: he's a Duke. Could there be, unless he were a King, a more obvious exemplar of social class?

Wow lots of tangents thrown in there as usual Kev & embellished with your usual copious helping of non factual guff ….“gleefully”....silly. Lets stick to the subject in hand please.

Nope I still don’t see the social class and snobbery link between the landowner being a Duke and you wandering onto private land as a 11 year old and being told so.

Perhaps it would help if you could indicate on the scale below at which point it would not be linked to social class and snobbery and just becomes a simple case of trespassing ;

Landowner
Duke
Marquess
Earl
Countess
Viscount
Baron
Landed Gentry
Common man
 

nottskev

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"Gleefully" because you did contrive to sound so pleased with yourself that parroting "market forces" trumped every rational point and specific example re. fisheries spoilt by carp stocking. I believe there's a post where you say you can't be wrong on the strength of it. Do you recall that one?

Your take on the complexities of maintaining feudal models of billionaire land ownership in a world where most of us are squeezed for every penny over the tax thresholds and can barely afford a secure place to live is just too simplistic to engage with, so excuse me if I don't.

I live in a house built on a small part of a former pseudo-aristocratic estate (coal money) which the owners sold to the local authority nearly 100 years ago, after the Liberal Government of 1906 whacked up the death duties on inherited big money/estates and caused the super rich to just trim things a bit. ( It hardly beggared them) They built a rather beautiful estate of bungalows, on the Garden City model, but a bit cheaper, in a spirit of post WW1 Homes for Heroes. Today we'd call it affordable housing. Later, the owners sold the lot, and the park and hall are managed by the Council, open to the public, and stage popular events through the year, and I and hundreds of others, including the hundreds living on the estate, "trespass" daily in the grounds. If you want to root for the privacy rights of the Duke of Westminster, go ahead. Personally, I think there's more of a future in pushing for reforms that re-balance the interests of aristocratic landowners and the public.
 

Philip

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Your take on the complexities of maintaining feudal models of billionaire land ownership in a world where most of us are squeezed for every penny over the tax thresholds and can barely afford a secure place to live is just too simplistic to engage with, so excuse me if I don't.

That’s handy.

Ironic that in a discussion about class and snobbery you appear to be extracting yourself from replying based on the question & questionnaire being considered too simplistic & beneath your vast intellect.

Fancy that.
 

nottskev

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That’s handy.

Ironic that in a discussion about class and snobbery you appear to be extracting yourself from replying based on the question & questionnaire being considered too simplistic & beneath your vast intellect.

Fancy that.

Not at all. That's a serve into the net. Send me one worth returning. And try to read the replies before you answer them. Without looking further than my window I gave you an example of how small amounts of previously private estate land have been bought, albeit in a leveraged way, and re-purposed for enormous public good. And nobody got their head chopped off or shot in a basement in Yekaterinburg. Do you disapprove of that kind of thing? Should we just continue, as we do, to subsidise the biggest landowners? I don't know - you just went on about your knock-down questionnaire.

Your simple notion of trespass is just that, simple. Would you be aware that, aside from whether swotty little 11yr old birdwatchers deserve to be terrorised by a Duke's armed goons for trying to see his (lol) woodpeckers, historic rights of access for the public (National Parks Legislation, Countryside Rights of Way Act) have stemmed from "trespass"? Try not to worry so much that I was an eleven year old trespasser, and try to see the bigger picture which the little story illustrates - the unreasonable exclusion of the public from huge swathes of the country in anachronistic ownership. It's not the same as people encroaching on the suburban garden, although I can see the issues trigger conservatives.
 
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