Ground bait

[robtherake]

I,m not offended mate,some of the venue,s i fish are solid,but on certain days,you could be fooled into thinking theres not a fish in there!!!,commercials are not as easy as everyone thinks...ok there not as hard as a 100 acre res with 20 carp in,but they still hold challenges of their own,Gaz

I've come back to this one, Gaz, (and I hope the OP doesn't mind me straying off-topic,) to say a few things that bear a mention.

On a lake I fish on a fairly regular basis, I was doing rather badly, sitting next to a young lad who fishes match-style tactics to very good effect. On the opposite side was another guy, fishing full-on carp style, and also doing rather well (it made me chuckle at the time to see him hauling out carp no bigger than a few pounds with the full Delks/Solar stainless/gigantic big pit reels/3lb rods, plus a carp cradle that would have swallowed a whale, but that's straying from the point.)

Both these guys were successful in their own ways, and it made me wonder about how I could adapt my own semi-specimen tactics to suit.
To cut a long story short, I went away and had a good, long think about how to adapt my own approach, and came up with several ideas that incorporated aspects of what both anglers were doing well.

Suffice to say, armed with a few new tricks my catch rate and consistency has soared. I've since become quite friendly with the young lad, who fishes matches regularly and clearly knows his onions. He's chatty and open, so there's no need to pick his brains, and by observing his feeding regimes closely (which is where this post ties in with the rest of the thread) have learnt an awful lot about how the right approach to feeding the swim can maximise your chances.

Whatever one's views on match fishing there is much to be learnt from capable exponents of this art, who really understand what's going on under the water (particularly with respect to feeding) and are consummate masters of getting the very best out of the peg they draw.

In the little charity shop in town, I'd noticed a small stack of recent match fishing magazines - offered for peanuts - which I'd previously passed over.
I returned and bought the lot: what an eye-opener! Used to the usual coarse mags (you know, the ones you read in the supermarket while the wife gets her shopping fix,) which appear to trot out the same old tactics time after time in between blatant advertorial articles, these had the thinking part of angling condensed into a science. I'd rather buy these every month than any of the other offerings, and it's sure raised my estimation of those fellas perched on oil rigs - I may even start going to a few matches to watch and learn, something I never thought I would say.

 

[barbelboi]

You just need add an emulsifier, such as; alcohol, glycerol (glycerine), pectin and glycerite.

Then oils can freely disperse in water.

Very true Colin, as I see it oils are only soluble in water at warmer temperatures, but oil is also soluble in alcohol which in itself is soluble in water at lower temperature which is why I often add alcohol to a paste mix in winter to aid leakage.

 

[mick b]

Just take up fly-fishing

You'll not believe this but I have .......mg:

---------- Post added at 02:47 ---------- Previous post was at 02:42 ----------

You just need add an emulsifier, such as; alcohol, glycerol (glycerine), pectin and glycerite.

Then oils can freely disperse in water.

Add ALCOHOL................your having me on aren't you?


On a more serious note I have come to realise, after sixty plus years on the bankside, that groundbait mixing, mixes and feeding is a very important part of my sport I have seriously neglected.

I doubt I will ever by a single additive or oil, but just by slightly modifying my hookbait and freebies has already increased my catches spectacularly.

And I have recently purchased my first bag of commercially made groundbait since Silver Cloud!!!!!!!!

 

[richiekelly]

I've come back to this one, Gaz, (and I hope the OP doesn't mind me straying off-topic,) to say a few things that bear a mention.

On a lake I fish on a fairly regular basis, I was doing rather badly, sitting next to a young lad who fishes match-style tactics to very good effect. On the opposite side was another guy, fishing full-on carp style, and also doing rather well (it made me chuckle at the time to see him hauling out carp no bigger than a few pounds with the full Delks/Solar stainless/gigantic big pit reels/3lb rods, plus a carp cradle that would have swallowed a whale, but that's straying from the point.)

Both these guys were successful in their own ways, and it made me wonder about how I could adapt my own semi-specimen tactics to suit.
To cut a long story short, I went away and had a good, long think about how to adapt my own approach, and came up with several ideas that incorporated aspects of what both anglers were doing well.

Suffice to say, armed with a few new tricks my catch rate and consistency has soared. I've since become quite friendly with the young lad, who fishes matches regularly and clearly knows his onions. He's chatty and open, so there's no need to pick his brains, and by observing his feeding regimes closely (which is where this post ties in with the rest of the thread) have learnt an awful lot about how the right approach to feeding the swim can maximise your chances.

Whatever one's views on match fishing there is much to be learnt from capable exponents of this art, who really understand what's going on under the water (particularly with respect to feeding) and are consummate masters of getting the very best out of the peg they draw.

In the little charity shop in town, I'd noticed a small stack of recent match fishing magazines - offered for peanuts - which I'd previously passed over.
I returned and bought the lot: what an eye-opener! Used to the usual coarse mags (you know, the ones you read in the supermarket while the wife gets her shopping fix,) which appear to trot out the same old tactics time after time in between blatant advertorial articles, these had the thinking part of angling condensed into a science. I'd rather buy these every month than any of the other offerings, and it's sure raised my estimation of those fellas perched on oil rigs - I may even start going to a few matches to watch and learn, something I never thought I would say.

Although I am not and never have been a match angler I have a mate that used to fish a lot of matches, he was very open about what he did to most that bothered to ask, they are to my mind some of the better anglers out there and I learned a lot from him, I never did master his method of keeping a float still in wind and undertow though.

 

[sagalout]

So would a low food value particle, pigeon conditioner for example, be a better feed item than ground bait?

 

[mick b]

So would a low food value particle, pigeon conditioner for example, be a better feed item than ground bait?

Its my understanding that dried pigeon dropping form a major percentage of commercially available match groundbaits.
The reason being that birds only utilise 50-60% of the food they consume thus their excrement is high in natural protein (plus enzymes from the birds stomach).

Birds like pigeons eat grain and young green shoots of plants like clover and brassicas, all good protein which fish also eat in one form or another.

Collecting pigeon dropping then mixing them with say bread crumb could be a good alternative to commercial grounbaits, but what it would be like in your hands is another mattermg:

 

[robtherake]

Soil (molehill soil) or compost - both full of food items - can make great low-feed alternatives, or additives.

 

[sagalout]

Isn't mole hill soil just soil that a mole has excavated so has no enhancement beyond the non mole hill soil from the same area?

So a good low 9zero) feed would be some soil and liquid additive?

 

[robtherake]

Isn't mole hill soil just soil that a mole has excavated so has no enhancement beyond the non mole hill soil from the same area?

So a good low 9zero) feed would be some soil and liquid additive?

Molehill soil's already finely divided by their digging action and is easy to collect, even if one doesn't have a garden. The mole's principal diet is earthworms, so I expect there are remnants/juices/mole dung present in the mix.
Has anyone ever seen a mole surface in the middle of it's molehill? It's the funniest thing. I was once out with my little dogs and one stiffened and started sniffing, keenly interested in proceedings. Bit by bit, a furry head and mobile nose appeared, so I held him back and watched for a bit. It didn't come out far, just sort of hung there with it's front feet splayed out to the side, nose and whiskers twitching like an old bloke waking up - a charming sight and, I suspect, a quite rare one.

As to adding a liquid feed: why not? Sounds like a great idea, but soil's full of microbes and little animalcules which presumably add their own attraction.

The first time I saw soil used as an attractor was as a teenager in the 70s. We fished a naturally stocked water - it was free fishing, and a great place for us boys to learn - filled with (we assumed) nothing but perch, but tench were also rumoured to exist, although none of us had seen one up until that point.

One day, a lad with less patience than the rest of us was using his float for target practice using little (marble sized) balls of rich bankside soil. Lo and behold, when his float disappeared, there was a tench of maybe two pounds pulling valiantly on the end of his line!
Needless to say, we all adopted the same tactic over the coming weeks and a couple of us caught tench of our own, although I don't think there were many present.

 

[mick b]

Soil (molehill soil) or compost - both full of food items - can make great low-feed alternatives, or additives.

Now you have got me thinking......

I have a wormery chock full of worm 'worked' soil...wonder if.....a plug of that in a feeder would work as an attractant....???...or......I could dry it and use it as an additive in my mash.....??


As for soil I have used a lump of turf as an attractant, did work tho mg:



As for Moles
Yes Ive seen a few of them surface, tho usually they get it with a barrel as soon as the nose appears or a hefty kick to put them out of the soil to be quickly dispatched.
Nicepix knows what I mean, moles are great in children's books but in a field, never!

Tho I agree they are quite sweet little creatures and nowadays I wouldn't harm one............unless it was in my garden!
.

 

[nicepix]

Rob, a molehill is just excavated soil. Nothing more, nothing less. The mole hasn't had time to fertilise it even if that were possible as the molehill is usually made up of the soil excavated from a new tunnel before the mole gets chance to use it. As such molehills can and do contain grit, stones and other debris. I've seen some that are 90% grit and others largely made up of black clinker from an old foundry. I use molehill soil to colour the water and sometimes to add weight to groundbait and hook baits without adding feed.

Soil has been used for donkey's years. There are articles about it from over a hundred years ago in fishing books. In the late 1960's Lancashire anglers such as Benny Ashurst used balls of riddled leaf mold along with jokers and bloodworm on the canals.

---------- Post added at 17:07 ---------- Previous post was at 17:03 ----------

Now you have got me thinking......

I have a wormery chock full of worm 'worked' soil...wonder if.....a plug of that in a feeder would work as an attractant....???...or......I could dry it and use it as an additive in my mash.....??

Mick, If you have a wormery in a box then my advice would be to fit a tap of some sort at the bottom. One used by home brewers should be ideal. At the bottom of the box will be 'worm juice' a yellowy fluid that has been used as an attractant for a good number of years now. You can drain some off every now and then.

 

[robtherake]

Thinking about it, Nicepix, you're almost certainly right about the molehill soil.
Worms, though, form a huge part of their diet, which is probably why they can be such a nuisance, living in the rich soils that support healthy earthworm populations. The worms themselves exist on tiny particles of decaying organic matter (I've watched them pulling leaves down their burrows at night time) and their excretions are up to seven times richer in available plant foods than the stuff they consume (saieth he, with organic gardener's hat on.)
It's this stuff, together with the aeration and drainage supplied by their tunneling, that makes soil with a healthy worm population so good for growing crops.
So you'd expect molehill soil to contain a certain proportion of this worm excreta, together with wormy digestive juices and intestinal flora. I'm sure that it'll add flavours to the water that fish will be inclined - maybe compelled - to investigate.

Not so long back, some entrepreneur launched a product called living groundbait, or similar, which supposedly teemed with attractive soil life. The principle must surely be the same.

Worms Direct UK Reviews | Customer Reviews Of www.wormsdirect.co.uk

 

[lambert1]

I have been collecting worm casts for some time now to use in ground bait as I read somewhere about their use, but I had not thought about using the worm liquid from the wormery as Nicepix mentioned. I have used it as a fertilizer/feed in the garden watered down and to be honest it hums! I recently bought a tin of shrimp paste from a Chinese supermarket so all that is missing is the nbutyric acid and I will have Enviromental Health hammering on my garage door, not to mention the wife! This is the sort of thing that happens when you can't get out on the rivers fishing! I was reading Archie Braddocks book the other day and he said quite simply that fish will associate soil with worms because when they eat them, their stomachs will have some soil in them, which makes sense.

 

[nicepix]

Thinking about it, Nicepix, you're almost certainly right about the molehill soil.
Worms, though, form a huge part of their diet, which is probably why they can be such a nuisance, living in the rich soils that support healthy earthworm populations. The worms themselves exist on tiny particles of decaying organic matter (I've watched them pulling leaves down their burrows at night time) and their excretions are up to seven times richer in available plant foods than the stuff they consume (saieth he, with organic gardener's hat on.)
It's this stuff, together with the aeration and drainage supplied by their tunneling, that makes soil with a healthy worm population so good for growing crops.
So you'd expect molehill soil to contain a certain proportion of this excreta, together with wormy digestive juices and intestinal flora. I'm sure that it'll add flavours to the water that fish will be inclined - maybe compelled - to investigate.

Not so long back, some entrepreneur launched a product called living groundbait, or similar, which supposedly teemed with attractive soil life. The principle must surely be the same.

The soil in a molehill is dug and scraped from the ground and then shoved up above ground level in order for the mole to create a tunnel. In that respect it has no excreta or other contamination from the mole because it is discarded before the mole uses that tunnel. It is pure soil just the same as you can dig yourself.

I have excavated thousands of mole tunnels and never once seen any sign of mole excreta. I believe, but do no know for sure that they have a specific toilet area similar to how a badger defecates in specific places away from the nest. Either that or they go outdoors to do it

There are dozens of myths about moles and the organic value of molehill soil is just another one of them.

You are right though about moles living in worm rich soil though. I recently took 11 of the pests out of a small garden of around 1000 m2. Every time I dug into the tunnel to set a trap I managed to harvest several worms for my fishing expeditions. It was snided with them.

Anyone looking to find a few worms for fishing would do well to dig the areas around molehills.

 

[robtherake]

How deep to their tunnels go, as a matter of interest, and how extensive are they?

 

[Tee-Cee]

I walk the Hambleden Valley near Henley, and in places, molehills are everywhere. Strangely, they always seem to be in roughly the same area and I cannot see any reason as this why this is so.... Such is the tightness of the areas it becomes difficult to walk through the 'walker flattened' areas of old hills and it's very easy to turn an ankle as I know full well!

As others have said, soil has been used for donkey's years, often to get groundbait to the bottom much quicker in very deep swims. Also, in shallow swims it helped mask a white bed of bread groundbait in clear water.
From memory, I believe the Taylor brothers used loads of worm ridden soil balls as groundbait when tench fishing a certain Aylesbury water from a pontoon with Walker and Stone................The catches, made using the original 'lift' method were considerable!





ps I had thought to dig for worms around said molehills, but I doubt the farmer would be best pleased.......................

 

[nicepix]

The reason molehills can be confined to certain areas is often down to underground springs or shade from trees. In high summer and hard frost moles will use these areas to locate food and for comfort as they are likely to be insulated against the extremes of weather.

Mole tunnels can be found anywhere from just under the surface where they push up the turf rather than excavate, to around 2 feet deep. In moderate weather conditions they will be found using the shallower runs and in extremes of weather they go down to the deeper tunnels. A well established mole will have several deep 'A' roads that lead from the fortress or nest out towards feeding areas. They also temporarily move to different areas if their tunnels become flooded or uninhabitable due to drought. They are often said to be solitary but that is not the case. Mole catchers regularly trap several adults in the same tunnels.

 

[mick b]

Mick, If you have a wormery in a box then my advice would be to fit a tap of some sort at the bottom. One used by home brewers should be ideal. At the bottom of the box will be 'worm juice' a yellowy fluid that has been used as an attractant for a good number of years now. You can drain some off every now and then.

mg:mg:mg:
Yes its a sectional wooden box.
When I built it I installed a tray in the bottom to catch the liquid for use as a liquid feed, but because I only empty the soil out once a year the liquid overflows and I just let it drain into the surrounding ground!!!

The liquid is not yellow, sort of dark brown, suppose it depends on the soil and what you feed the worms on, mine get mostly banana skins

How do I use it as an attractant, the BB Colne Valley 'sponge in a feeder' method or ???


Nicepix you certainly know your stuff, not bad for a late learner.
In the '30s when my my father was a schoolboy he used to catch Moles and send the skins to London, he caught so many it actually supplemented the family budget.
He taught me the skills and that the money tunnel was always the one that was polished smooth by the constant traffic, usually found between one feeding area and another and often under paths or tracks.
One thing I never proved was the country tale that male moles make straight runs and their ladies are all over the place??

As for molehills I have found quite a few coins, some quite valuable in the excavated soil, ....always worth a look...(tip)

 

[sumtime]

...or......I could dry it and use it as an additive in my mash.....??
.

you'll be telling us next you're using the soil in yer sausages. mg:

 

[nicepix]

Yes, it is true. If you find a linear system of tunnels then it is usually a male, or boar in the trap. If you get the dartboard type of tunnel system, a series of runs connecting a central fortress to the feeding areas then it is usually a sign of a female, or sow in residence. However, in breeding season or times of hardship such as floods or drought anything goes. I've had two adult males in the same trap, two adult females and every combination of young and old.

The friend who taught me almost thirty years ago had an account with a couple of Jewish milliners. He prepared the skins then sent a batch off every now and then. And as you say, it made good money.

Use your worm juice as an additive in groundbait or as the others have said, put it in a sponge wedged inside a feeder.