Guiding - A question

[Derek Gibson]

Often the case but not always.

How true, debating that very issue has resulted in the loss of two friendships for me. Strange how ethic's and money can destroy even close friendships. A bitter lesson to learn, when faced with pitiful excuses to justify their actions.

 

[pointngo]

Unless the guide wears a big badge with 'guide' written on it, how could a bailiff for instance know he was guiding?

They make their living out of getting known and so advertise the fact. Any bailiff who knows his water and the regulars who fish it, as well as the guide, should be able to see what's going on.

 

[Peter Jacobs]

but I think you'd have your work cut out trying to claim Intellectual Property Rights.

I'm not convinced of that to be honest, stranger defenses have been successful in the past.

As for the Guiding "problem" I don't really see what the problem really is?
If I ever thought about having a "guided" day then I'd be sure to check that all relevant permissions/tickets/licenses were in place and that the guide has proper insurance.

If a club or association are that concerned than it should be up to them to take the appropriate steps having first checked on their own leases and rights.

 

[pointngo]

I know a few guides and others who describe themselves as an angling coach. All are very careful to have all insurance up to date and are very particular about insisting that all rules of the water are adhered to. It's not in their interest to get a bad reputation with clients or with those controlling the waters. The clubs, riperian owners etc don't mind at all - it's another day ticket sold and another happy customer at the end of the day.
I use guides all the time when I go fishing abroad, I see nothing but good from it. The guides are usually part-timers, running it as a 'hobby-business' with a proper job on the side as their main income.

I've no doubt there are a lot of guides who do go about it the right way Geoff but there are also plenty who don't. I'm not sure I agree with you about the clubs and/or owners not minding though... that's the opposite to my limited experience of the situation.

I also use guides when fishing abroad and like you, rarely see a downside. Some of the actual guides (rather than the guiding company) who I've been with don't even get a wage, and just rely on tips and board. It's very hard for most to make any real money guiding.

I'm certainly not against guides, and although it might not be to some anglers liking, there are people who can benefit from it, and maybe even catch a fish of dreams.

---------- Post added at 15:06 ---------- Previous post was at 15:03 ----------

Haulage companies etc pay the road tax for their vehicles at a much higher rate than a private car (in the thousands) and they also have an operators licence that needs to be paid for. In addition they have public liability insurance and Employers liability insurance (unless it's an owner driver for the latter)

---------- Post added at 19:05 ---------- Previous post was at 19:03 ----------



Public liability insurance with the correct clauses should cover the client the same way as companies have theirs to cover sub contractors etc.

It goes without saying though that they should have permission from whoever controls the water or owns the land.

cheers Hyperdrive; I could never imagine a potential tax opportunity passing the Gov't by.

---------- Post added at 15:09 ---------- Previous post was at 15:06 ----------

I have managed waters and land and had to deal with quite a few 'guides' on occasions.

A fishery is usually established and run as a 'Recreational Facility' and as such cannot be used for Private Gain unless the owner receives some form of recompense.
No Riparian Owner renting fishing to an Angling Club would agree to a the Club allowing a third party to run a business on the rented water without some form of agreement and further payment.

I never allowed Guides or Instructors of any sort to operate unless they were working for a Charity, all but one stopped the moment they were approached, many offering to sign and pay the rental agreement for the day in return for permission to continue.
The only person who became an habitual offender was only stopped after I sent a letter to his Chief Constable.

I never even permitted Professional Photographers to operate unless they signed an agreement and I received payment.

Great post Mick, just the sort of stuff I wanted to understand.

---------- Post added at 15:18 ---------- Previous post was at 15:09 ----------

How true, debating that very issue has resulted in the loss of two friendships for me. Strange how ethic's and money can destroy even close friendships. A bitter lesson to learn, when faced with pitiful excuses to justify their actions.

I know exactly what you mean Derek. The desperate need for fame and/or money of some people tramples on friendships.. as one mate I occasionally fish with (who has been a guide in Thailand for quite a few years, and elsewhere) said.. "they sell their soul!"

 

[sam vimes]

I suspect that quite a few clubs would be over the moon with any new income, even if it were just a few extra day tickets and the odd annual licence. An awful lot of clubs out there are struggling in a big way. I know of one, formerly a fair sized club, that folded recently with a membership of just over twenty!

I'm pretty sure that the one club I belong to would be delighted if I, or anyone else, took up guiding and publicised their waters even more than I already do (the only angling I do that I will publicise, in the vague hope it will help the club). However, I suspect that I'd struggle to make any money. I doubt people are too keen to be guided to a net of chublets and dace (summer/autumn), a horde of minnows (every month of the year, if the last is anything to go by), a bunch of grayling (mainly winter) and a few mad brownies (almost any time that the lunatics choose to turn up).

In the unlikely event that I'm wrong, please do let me know. The club committee is likely do cartwheels for a few extra quid and I'll do anything to further put off getting a real job!:wh

 

[pointngo]

I'm not convinced of that to be honest, stranger deference have been successful in the past.

As for the Guiding "problem" I don't really see what the problem really is?
If I ever thought about having a "guided" day then I'd be sure to check that all relevant permissions/tickets/licenses were in place and that the guide has proper insurance.

If a club or association are that concerned than it should be up to them to take the appropriate steps having first checked on their own leases and rights.

I've not said there is a problem Peter. I'm just trying to understand a few things.

I commend you if you indeed would go through all of that checking but I'd hazard a guess that most don't.. as a Client wouldn't you expect that to have been put in place by the guide already, as a prerequisite?

 

[thecrow]

Often the case but not always.

Possibly not when you have seen them but on the river where I have seen it the client was the only one fishing, the water was a no day ticket water I doubt the client paid for a year to fish one day.

 

[Peter Jacobs]

I commend you if you indeed would go through all of that checking but I'd hazard a guess that most don't.. as a Client wouldn't you expect that to have been put in place by the guide already, as a prerequisite?

Yes, I would expect a pro' guide to have it all in place, but it does no harm asking the questions.

I think in all walks of life, fishing included, that there are those out to try to make a quick buck or to bolster their already inflated self-esteem, but those people soon become well known and mostly avoided by the vast majority.

 

[thecrow]

I'm not convinced of that to be honest, stranger defenses have been successful in the past.

As for the Guiding "problem" I don't really see what the problem really is?
If I ever thought about having a "guided" day then I'd be sure to check that all relevant permissions/tickets/licenses were in place and that the guide has proper insurance.

If a club or association are that concerned than it should be up to them to take the appropriate steps having first checked on their own leases and rights.

Some broads pikers wouldn't agree.

 

[guest61]

1st thing springs to mind: Duty of care

2nd: Liability

3rd: Responsibility H&S RAMS etc neccesary equipment and the like

I do RAMS (risk assessments and method statements) for working near water, let alone working in it and its a minefield.

Does anyone have any knowledge of the legal requirements of paid guiding and the potential issues if there was an accident ie one that would be reportable to HSE?

I would want my arse covered, especially if I was taking someone who had some legal clout and money about them, especially out onto open water

 

[sam vimes]

I'm fully aware that we now live in a stupidly litigious world. However, I'm at a loss as to what could befall me that could reasonably (and note I said reasonably, not necessarily legally) be blamed on a guide. We are getting into the realms of risk assessments, appropriate PPE, insurance and all of the associated guff here. As far as I'm concerned, such nonesense is the absolute antithesis to fishing.

 

[pointngo]

Yes, I would expect a pro' guide to have it all in place, but it does no harm asking the questions.

I think in all walks of life, fishing included, that there are those out to try to make a quick buck or to bolster their already inflated self-esteem, but those people soon become well known and mostly avoided by the vast majority.

you're right of course mate, it doesn't hurt to ask questions but you've got to have some trust as well.

I'm in complete agreement with your last sentence and I whole-heartedly hope the last bit is true but that's not always the case it seems.

 

[guest61]

I'm fully aware that we now live in a stupidly litigious world. However, I'm at a loss as to what could befall me that could reasonably (and note I said reasonably, not necessarily legally) be blamed on a guide. We are getting into the realms of risk assessments, appropriate PPE, insurance and all of the associated guff here. As far as I'm concerned, such nonesense is the absolute antithesis to fishing.

Indeed, I agree. However, who has the responsibility?

Would the legalities of 'duty of care' apply? .

And should there be an accident reportable to HSE then all the documents, insurance, RAMS etc etc would be pulled apart and thoroughly checked

 

[pointngo]

Some broads pikers wouldn't agree.

Hmm, not thought of that. I only occasionally see guides where I fish but I can imagine on a piece of water like the Broads that there might be a lot.

do they all have the necessary permissions in place or can they operate without it?

---------- Post added at 17:05 ---------- Previous post was at 16:38 ----------

Indeed, I agree. However, who has the responsibility?

Would the legalities of 'duty of care' apply? .

And should there be an accident reportable to HSE then all the documents, insurance, RAMS etc etc would be pulled apart and thoroughly checked

I agree with you both. HSE is the antithesis of fishing but as a company operating in the fishing business there must be regulations they must adhere to, as in all other industries. If you have a legally binding contract with a guide then he must surely take responsibility for your safety, as far as he can, where he works.

Not sure how responsibility would work if bank fishing but if a boat was provided then seaworthiness, boat handling skills and suchlike can have serious implications with regards to safety, and even more so for anglers not used to fishing in boats. One bad move by the helmsman/guide can easily send someone over the side.

If permissions to operate hadn't been given, then the guides insurance would be void wouldn't it, and with it any insurance the Client thought he might have? I can't imagine any Insurance company that would pay out if the guide was operating illegally. Is this something most guides don't worry about because of the unlikelihood of serious injury?

 

[sam vimes]

I've little doubt that you may have the right of it. However, I still feel that it's a sad reflection of modern society that we even have to think along these lines. I'll bet that even proper ghillies and guides might not be aware of all the possible ramifications of their activities. Ultimately, it's likely to take a court case, specialist lawyers and the HSE to answer conclusively. I'd doubt that it's something that the HSE are even particularly aware of outside of (sea) boat fishing.

I do wonder, regardless of the guide "working" and being in his place of "work", whether the guided are "working" or in a "workplace" though. I suspect that might be the grey area they can exploit.