Martin Gay's 50lb English Common Carp: Closure.

[paul1_]

Re: Martin Gay's 50lb English Common Carp: Closure.

You are splitting hairs, picking up on the tiniest difference in testimony to prove nothing at all...

Explain then how his nephew in Toronto, Ontario (not British Columbia which is on the other side of Canada) remembers his uncle Martin Gay and his wife who stayed with him in Toronto catching all those commons from Lake Ontario?

Also I have caught thousands of carp since 1968 and witnessed 1000's of others caught in the UK. Not one has ever been damaged by a parasitic lamprey.
Lamprey are extremely rare in the UK, rarer still in 1989. Yet Martin's 48lb fish had the mark of a parasitic lamprey. How can this be?

So are you calling Robin Monday a liar then?

 

[tonybull]

Re: Martin Gay's 50lb English Common Carp: Closure.

Here's a perfect example Tony. A grassy around 40lb from an 'unknown' water. Well, unknown to most. And an English fish.

View image in gallery​

Geoff

At least you look the part

Looking at the photo of MG in his football shorts, plymsoles, not an hair out of place, hes looks immaculate and for someone who just played, netted, wrestled a big fish, its don't look right.

He's holding it at an angle with ease, and that is not easy with 50lb of fish.
Not a mark on his clothing after lifting the fish off the deck with all the flapping about.

Well rehearsed photo shot imo and the only people I know who dressed like he did in that era (when I was a teenager) was my dad and uncles when we went on holiday, not when we went fishing mg:

http://www.fishingmagic.com/files.php?file=MartinGay_48lb_zpshw25hm2n_928984207.jpg

Something not quite right with the photo-shoot imo


Then this photo with an hat on, but no hat in the trophy shot ?

http://www.fishingmagic.com/files.php?file=rsz_martinrodbending_956046006.jpg

 

[eddiebenham]

Re: Martin Gay's 50lb English Common Carp: Closure.

You are splitting hairs, picking up on the tiniest difference in testimony to prove nothing at all...
/QUOTE]
Splitting hairs am I . You still haven't explained why there are two different versions of the "truth" have you ? I wonder why ?
Someone has got it wrong. Please enlighten us all paul1.

 

[eddiebenham]

Re: Martin Gay's 50lb English Common Carp: Closure.

For those of you are completely tired of this matter I can assure you that it is shortly to come to a dramatic and conclusive end.

The Devil's in the detail.

Watch this space.

 

[thecrow]

Re: Martin Gay's 50lb English Common Carp: Closure.

For those of you are completely tired of this matter I can assure you that it is shortly to come to a dramatic and conclusive end.

The Devil's in the detail.

Watch this space.

Just like an episode of Emmerdale

 

[tonybull]

Re: Martin Gay's 50lb English Common Carp: Closure.

For those of you are completely tired of this matter I can assure you that it is shortly to come to a dramatic and conclusive end.

The Devil's in the detail.

Watch this space.

I've enjoyed reading all the threads across the net now, never even knew this even existed until this thread went up.

Be interesting if any witness's come forward who watched the catch and the weigh in of the 50lber. Because that's the only way there will ever be a final conclusion.

 

[geoffmaynard]

Re: Martin Gay's 50lb English Common Carp: Closure.

On the contrary, Geoff, Martin told Robin he had caught the fish in Canada whilst on holiday, although he was not specific about the water. This included the big one, otherwise how would Robin know about the lamprey bite on its belly?
Martin also told Alan Smith he caught the fish in Canada.
You are still ignoring the testimony of James Nowell that Martin's own family in Canada say he fished Lake Ontario and had a great catch of carp from there.

On the contrary, Geoff, Martin told Robin he had caught the fish in Canada whilst on holiday, although he was not specific about the water. This included the big one, otherwise how would Robin know about the lamprey bite on its belly?
Martin also told Alan Smith he caught the fish in Canada.
You are still ignoring the testimony of James Nowell that Martin's own family in Canada say he fished Lake Ontario and had a great catch of carp from there.

I believe Robin may have mistook a statement that the fish were caught whilst Martin was on holiday. On holiday from his work at the Uni that is, not "on holiday in Canada". Martin states very clearly that he never told Robin where he caught the fish which leads me to believe that Robin was mistaken. Note, not "a liar", just mistaken.

James statement I believe completely. Not so his neighbour. The reason is that Martin's holidays took him to Banff in the Rocky mountains, far from the St Lawrence or the Gt Lakes. This suggests that the neighbour is wrong, that the uncle was not MG but someone else entirely.

This mark you say is a Lamprey bite. Could it be one of the spawning marks Martin mentions? I wouldn't know, I'm not qualified to judge and neither are most other people I'd guess.

Tonybull said " Be interesting if any witness's come forward who watched the catch and the weigh in of the 50lber. Because that's the only way there will ever be a final conclusion."

That's not the way we work though really Tony, is it? We go by the "innocent until proved guilty" idea. Or we should do.

 

[no-one in particular]

Re: Martin Gay's 50lb English Common Carp: Closure.

For those of you are completely tired of this matter .

Not tired Eddie, its just a dead end, who said what to whom 23 years ago is unreliable and its all become opinions and conjecture. The only things that matter are the two people who saw the water and the untouched pictures. Reveal any of that and the games back on.

---------- Post added at 10:00 ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 ----------

I can assure you that it is shortly to come to a dramatic and conclusive end.)

Lining us all up against a wall and shooting us wont solve it, what do you think this is Eastenders

Ta ta, live long and prosper.

 

[paul1_]

Re: Martin Gay's 50lb English Common Carp: Closure.

The suggestion that Robin Monday was and still is mistaken is just silly.
Back then - before the days of the internet etc - you had to be very certain that what you put into print was absolutely true, because otherwise you could end up losing a lot of money. Both Tim Paisley and I were involved in the Anglers Mail/Kevin Maddocks libel case that was heard in the High Court a couple of years prior to the MG hoax.

There was no issue then that Robiin Monday could have made a mistake, or indeed Alan Smith made a mistake, or Chris Ball, or anyone else involved. We had to be completely certain otherwise Tim could have lost his business and I could not risk placing the Carp Society in danger of financial ruin.

Robin Monday told the absolute truth, MG shared the untouched pictures and the news of his catch on his return from Canada, there was no misunderstanding.

If we were all lying why didn't Martin Gay sue Angling Publications, Robin Monday, the Carp Society, Chris Ball, Jim Gibbinson, Alan Smith, Ricky Gibbinson etc who all went into print stating that Martin was lying and the fish had been caught in Canada? Because it was the truth, hence there were no libellous imputations.

I work with carp every day and there are no spawning marks on the commons, just a lamprey mark on the so-called 48 which Robin Monday noted in particular.

MG may also have visited the Rocky Mountains etc, but it was in Ontario where he caught the fish, when he and his wife stayed there with his relatives including his nephew who still lives there and who remembers with fondness his favourite Uncle.

 

[cg74]

Re: Martin Gay's 50lb English Common Carp: Closure.

For those of you are completely tired of this matter I can assure you that it is shortly to come to a dramatic and conclusive end.

The Devil's in the detail.

Watch this space.

Well get on with it!!

 

[geoffmaynard]

Re: Martin Gay's 50lb English Common Carp: Closure.

it was in Ontario where he caught the fish, when he and his wife stayed there with his relatives including his nephew who still lives there and who remembers with fondness his favourite Uncle

This would be a strong point in your argument's favour Paul, but for the FACT that you have absolutely nothing to corroborate the statement. Try and get some names of Jamie's neighbours for a start, find out exactly what this 'relation'ship was - and maybe we'll get to the bottom of this one day, one way or the other.

Yes Robin was a close fishing friend of Martin's. But so was Cliff and so was Eddie, and several others. Suggesting any one of these people is mistaken is a far more likely scenario than suggesting they are liars, which is deliberate deceit... All have good character and reputation and... so did Martin Gay. None were or are liars.
As for those well-known anglers you name who support your claim, there are just as many who don't. Hearsay is hearsay, there's no proof - and until you can come up with some, those fish were caught in the UK.

 

[paul1_]

Re: Martin Gay's 50lb English Common Carp: Closure.

This is my last post on this subject (again).

The fish were caught in Canada. I'm not pestering a family with an old hoax from 1989 that would discredit an uncle of which they were very fond and possibly cause upset.

I don't suppose Cliff bothered to ring Robin Monday as Robin requested.

If you believe in St Martin so strongly I suggest you try to get the fish re-established in the Big Carp List.

 

[no-one in particular]

Re: Martin Gay's 50lb English Common Carp: Closure.

Hearsay is hearsay, there's no proof - and until you can come up with some, those fish were caught in the UK.

Geoff -Its all hearsay; the venue, the photographs, tho unidentified anglers, the weight of the fish, the fish.
Give me a Yates or Walker fish any-day- known venue, comparable fish, clear untouched photos, properly witnessed, properly weighed. Its a bit of an insult really,a load of hearsay stories and one iffy picture. nothing iffy about Yates or Walkers carp and it has to be that way, fishing would be a mess if it wasn't, it would be a bit of a joke..

---------- Post added at 10:01 ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 ----------

Well get on with it!!

Don't hold your breath-They are probably all down the pub blotto pissing themselves laughing at the annual get together. Have one on me if you haven't already !

 

[greenie62]

Re: Martin Gay's 50lb English Common Carp: Closure.

This saga has gone on quite long enough for many of us. I would propose that - in true Agatha Christie 'WhoDunnWhat' style - we gather all the culprits together - including the Editorial Team, witnesses, confidantes, hearsayers, naysayers, etc - in 'the library' - then:
.
.
.
. Lock the door
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... and
.
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....... throw away the key! mg:

 

[eddiebenham]

Re: Martin Gay's 50lb English Common Carp: Closure.

Well get on with it!!

Sorry to keep you waiting but I've been rather busy making bait and actually doing a bit of fishing.
Got me away from all the "red herring"s for a while at least.
I should be able to "post" something sometime tomorrow.

---------- Post added at 05:13 ---------- Previous post was at 04:16 ----------

If we were all lying why didn't Martin Gay sue Angling Publications, Robin Monday, the Carp Society, Chris Ball, Jim Gibbinson, Alan Smith, Ricky Gibbinson etc who all went into print stating that Martin was lying and the fish had been caught in Canada?

I see that paul1 has since decided he has posted his last comments.
There have been many inconsistencies in his posts and he has chosen not to comment on various points that I have raised, he has merely ignored them.

Martin did not sue anybody, although he was legally advised that he had a case to do so. The reason was simple. He felt that he would have to disclose the name and location of the water in order to prove his case, and quite simply he was not prepared to do so.

As to the statement that ALL the above went into print stating that Martin was lying. Well the following is taken from what was written at the time.

Carpworld Winter 1989 no.7. Robin Munday writes "The rumours that have been bandied about are what they are - Rumours.

Carpworld March/April 1990 no.8 Robin Munday in an "interview" with Tim Paisley told him "Yes, he caught the fish while he was on holiday". No mention of Canada.

Also in that issue Tim Paisley writes that Jim Gibbinson wrote a long letter to Coarse Angler "suggesting"the fish had been caught in Canada.

Cyprinews no. 16 June 1990. Jim Gibbinson writes " In view of the fact that both Rick and I believe the fish to have been caught in Canada".

Please note the wording is "suggesting" and "believe".

Carpworld March/April 1990 no.8. Alan Smith writes "o.o.a. 11th. July Robin phoned me and gave details of the catch but not origin".

Obviously my files do not contain everything that was ever put into print, (although I do have some that wasn't), as I have not found any reference to Chris Ball or what he said. However, I find it difficult to believe that an angler of his standing actually went into print and stated that " Martin was lying and the fish had been caught in Canada".

If anyone has a copy of that I'd like to see it please.

 

[Cliff Hatton]

Re: Martin Gay's 50lb English Common Carp: Closure.

When posting with a quote, could contributors please try to render their fresh text distinguishable from the quote? Unfortunately the software here doesn't do a very good job of it when the post is reproduced below the article.

Thanks.

 

[tonybull]

Re: Martin Gay's 50lb English Common Carp: Closure.

Blinding thread and after all the recent posts, I still think the big fish is an Hoax.

Don't doubt the smaller fish even though they are still big fish, but the biggie could of been caught abroad and filmed on the same photo roll as the smaller ones.

There was no need to be so secretive about the water to all his close friends if the water was in this country. What's the point in having close friends if you can't allow yourself to tell them where the big fish came from.

 

[quantockfisher]

Re: Martin Gay's 50lb English Common Carp: Closure.

I remember this story very well and have often wondered at the truth.
I do not know where the fish were caught but I well remember the headlines at the time. The Angling Times headline was "The day I broke Richard Walkers Record" and the magazine "Coarse Fishing" ran with " If you want to know how to catch a record carp - ask a pike fisherman"
Provocative at the very least and also definitely claiming a to have broken the exsisting carp record.
Is it any wonder that the carp world wanted the truth about these captures and (in my opinion) Martin Gay did himself no favour's by allowing such provocative headlines , whilst refusing - point blank to offer up any proof what so ever that the fish where caught in the UK. (Telling a few friends and showing a few unnamed people is not proof.)

 

[eddiebenham]

Re: Martin Gay's 50lb English Common Carp: Closure.

I did say that I had more information to reveal and to "watch this space".

However, the Editor has decided that as my post would run to 4 pages of A4 that he will instead introduce it as a separate article in the next few days.

It will introduce PROOF that Martin was in the UK when he was supposed to be in Canada.

I hope you will all read it and you can then make up your own minds.
Everything I have said has been true and the information I produced was taken from what was published at the time.

Thanks to all who have "debated" this article, as I said before it has been a most enlightening experience for me. Many of my questions still remain unanswered though, for whatever reason.

This is my last post.

 

[tonybull]

Re: Martin Gay's 50lb English Common Carp: Closure.

Looking forward to reading it