Swan quill floats-refurb,seal and finish-whats best?

[Graham Whatmore]

I like the way George describes his floatmaking, articles like this for instance, he makes it seem so easy and straightforward but I bet it isn't.

George's articles on materials and 'how to' articles are the sort of thing that should be made a permanent and prominent fixture on Fishingmagic so people like Tee-Cee and others can refer to them without recoursing to asking on threads. Not only are they useful for budding float makers but it is an added attraction for the Fishingmagic site and maybe even warrants a perpetual homepage link. The site is always asking for ideas on how to create more interest on the site and this is one way, what do you think guys?

 

[the indifferent crucian]

Interesting observations on the paint and finishes George, thank-you for the links. I had wondered about some of the safety paints on the market but baulked at buying them lest the tin dry out with constant opening and using so little.

Tee Cee, thank-you, too, for your flattering comments. I am happy to pass on what I have found to work in float-making, just as does George. I owe a debt to so many anglers over the years for putting me right when I was getting it all wrong. I'm just trying to pay that debt.


Don't be so sure your floats won't work...they invariably will. Think of the ever-popular Perch and Grayling Bobbers. Hardly streamlined, but they used to catch well enough, causing an aggressive taking fish to almost hook itself with the drag they created going under.

Then think of something like a Billy Lane Canal Waggler or a Drennan Stilwater Blue, long slim floats that glide under easily to fool a gentle taking fish like a tench or crucian. All you need is to top them with a stem of neutrally bouyant material ( like a bamboo skewer, or cocktail stick ) and you can have plenty of stem showing to pick out the genuine bites from the liners.

Self-weighted floats can be a boon too, as they cock themselves immediately and you might stand a better chance of hooking the lightning fast takes of roach and rudd..I'm getting so slow they nearly always beat me now, but I've caught a few this Summer.


See if you can pick-up a copy of Billy Lane's Encyclopedia on floats, he tells how to make them all, and how to shot and fish them, too.

 

[Mark Wintle]

For small amounts of float making good yacht varnish is fine; I've been using the stuff for 40 years so far without any problems.

Well designed floats don't seem to be easy to find. Plenty of over pretty stuff that has poor design. I prefer ones I make myself that aren't over painted and that have the right balance that comes from understanding materials. This year I've finally got plenty of crow quills to work with next winter.

Neutral buoyancy for sensitivity; not what my mate Archie Meadez reckons...

 

[the indifferent crucian]

Hello Mark, not seen you post so much lately, I presumed you were out fishing a lot before Summer is gone?


I meant neutral bouyancy in the visible part of the stem for shy biting fish, though it helps with carp too, just shows which bites are serious and which were dropped or 'liners'.


Do you have some opposing thoughts? ...always glad to listen.


I do have some hollow tips for floats that are self-coloured and so thin the air inside them is minimal, but they aren't too visible at distance ( well, not at my age,anyway) and I find a cane stem as sensitive, even though it is so much thicker.



On the subject of crowquills, I wish I could find more. Although there are several nesting spots around here they seem un-naturally good at not moulting them!

All feathers seem to have the same curvature, whether pigeon, magpie or jackdaw, but the few crow feathers I have found do seem to be straighter, making a nicer float.



I was lucky enough last year to turn up at Marsh Farm the morning after the resident Egyptian Goose, Eric, had had a right good barney with an interloper.


I found about 20 x 12in. feathers and shouldn't need to ever look for goosequill again.

 

[Tee-Cee]

Float making materials seem to becoming more and more scarce..sarkadas reed seems to be a thing of the past and although some don't fancy it because of the painting problem(wants to peel at the slightest knock)I always found it great to work with and finish providing I used several coats of varnish....

Bird quills et al...like the Crucian I just have to keep looking but its a job and a half to find enough of decent quality although some waters that have bird sanctuaries or the like sometimes yield a few.Most it seems tend to be on little islands just out of reach and too far to swim for....at my age anyway!!

Still,its part of floatmakers lot and although frustrating work doesn't deter the above artisans in any way....

Thanks George for your excellent additional info-always good to see someone who gives so much knowledge for free which helps us all at the end of the day-really good stuff!

may all you quills sink below the surface at regular intervals.........

ps for my limited production I will try the Yacht varnish to begin with and then give Georges method a try when I have some spare cash...

 

[George387]

Your more than welcome Tee Cee, I believe in passing things on otherwise the art will simply die away and I would hate that to happen, Im not a true traditionalist in the sense I use nothing but traditional materials but I do enjoy the pleasure of my float making but as mark says some take it over the edge with whipping, painting, feather inlays etc. I prefer to think my floats are used for what I made them for and that was catching fish , not to look pretty and sit in a case or for someone to be scared to use it incase they lost it.

You would be surprised at the price of lacquer I buy mine from my local rydnor store in thirsk and for a 1 litre bottle it cost £12.90, I have added a link for your viewing.
Rydenor, woodfinish, wax, French, polish, furniture, restoration, floor

 

[Mark Wintle]

Hello Mark, not seen you post so much lately, I presumed you were out fishing a lot before Summer is gone?
I've been testing my patience with mullet, catching some, missing plenty and getting/losing the odd monster! I need some easy fishing!


I meant neutral bouyancy in the visible part of the stem for shy biting fish, though it helps with carp too, just shows which bites are serious and which were dropped or 'liners'.

Only the volume matters when dealing with float sensitivity as the buoyancy has already been taken care off by the overall shotting - that's for floats of the same size and shape so that inertia and drag are the same

Do you have some opposing thoughts? ...always glad to listen.


I do have some hollow tips for floats that are self-coloured and so thin the air inside them is minimal, but they aren't too visible at distance ( well, not at my age,anyway) and I find a cane stem as sensitive, even though it is so much thicker.

The sensitivity of a given tip is calculable - simple physics. I've made floats with hollow tips of 3-4mm with a hole to let in the water that have been as sensitive as 1mm cane due to having wall thickness of around 0.25 mm. The best way to increase float sensitivity is through understanding how big a drop shot and how near to place it to the hook. Ivan Marks' book on match fishing explains it very well when telling about his 2mm antenna floats. I used these floats many years ago and the way to detect very shy bites was to put a no. 4 about 2ft from the hook.

On the subject of crowquills, I wish I could find more. Although there are several nesting spots around here they seem un-naturally good at not moulting them!

I found a lot through finding an area of parkland in Poole that had loads of crows/rooks. Best time was early /mid July

All feathers seem to have the same curvature, whether pigeon, magpie or jackdaw, but the few crow feathers I have found do seem to be straighter, making a nicer float.



I was lucky enough last year to turn up at Marsh Farm the morning after the resident Egyptian Goose, Eric, had had a right good barney with an interloper.


I found about 20 x 12in. feathers and shouldn't need to ever look for goosequill again.

I like the smaller goose quills - 7-8" to use on bigger Avon floats as an alternative to crow quills. My rarest Avon is made with an egret feather that I spotted when one took off leaving the feather!

 

[the indifferent crucian]

Mark, I've read you posting about this issue before. I have to confess I dropped out of O level Physics, I simply couldn't understand the Master who taught it, though I dearly wanted to. It must have been my fault, enough others went on to get a pass in the exam.



I have made identical bodied floats, with just different antennae, and they have behaved differently to one another. Those with tips of a more bouyant material sitting higher in the water and taking more shot to sink that antenna.

Those with antennae of a less bouyant material, such as a cocktail stick or whittled-down cane, have required less shot to sit right in the water and have concealed more of the tip section for less shot.

I can follow that the different materials have done no more than alter the centre of bouyancy, but how can it be that the tips behave so differently?


I'm currently fishing Duckers of either cork with balsa fairings top and bottom, or balsa, both on a cane stem and I have found that even when the fish are simply just not in the mood I can allow as much as two inches of cane to show and still get bites, as the fish swim away with the bait and eventually decide to swallow it, not having detected the float.


Others fishing near me with, for example, a loaded waggler with a bouyant insert tip cannot get a bite to strike to. The float goes under but the bait is immediately rejected, presumably as the fish move on without closing their mouths or simply that they detect the resistance to going under of the more bouyant float.


In the past, when I fished whips and poles more, I found I could still get fish in the net when they were like this by having very slim bodied floats shotted until they sank thier tips below the surface with the weight of the bait. If the fish took the bait out to deeper water ( and those ruddy crucians did every time) and then dropped it , it still sank to the bottom and they then accepted it.

Of course, I could be wrong. Many thought I was mad. Perhaps a gudgeon was sneaking off with the bait and then a crucian was bullying it off them.


I don't really know what was happening, just the thought processes that led me there.I can say, hand on heart, that for a whole Summer I took fish on a daily basis whilst others went home without a catch. Nobodys luck holds out that long..surely it had to be these barely bouyant rigs I was fishing with?


I simply try to create the same situation with running line floats that I had with pole floats.

 

[Tee-Cee]

Thanks George-all I need now is a good supply of various bird quills and the Billy Lane book and I'll be off and running!!

.....like searching for rocking horse poo.........but we keep trying!

Best of luck to you!

 

[Graham Whatmore]

Here you go Tee-Cee not so rare as you thought mate they are freely available on the net in fact I just bought one for £10.

Oh! god! That picture of Billy on the front is going to start a new war, I just know it! :j

 

[Ray Roberts]

I like the way George describes his floatmaking, articles like this for instance, he makes it seem so easy and straightforward but I bet it isn't.

George's articles on materials and 'how to' articles are the sort of thing that should be made a permanent and prominent fixture on Fishingmagic so people like Tee-Cee and others can refer to them without recoursing to asking on threads. Not only are they useful for budding float makers but it is an added attraction for the Fishingmagic site and maybe even warrants a perpetual homepage link. The site is always asking for ideas on how to create more interest on the site and this is one way, what do you think guys?

Good idea Graham, Georges float making and the mega thread that turned out to be a master class on lure fishing by Derek Gibson were in my humble opinion two of the best articles and threads on here and show the best side of fm.

 

[Tee-Cee]

First class idea.....George's information would make a great start-and I agree new anglers might just go for making a few floats if some good solid info was available...something to do on those long cold winter nights and by the time winter is coming to an end you're bursting to try them out!!

If they are 'how to' articles could something be attached wherby people could add further info on the subject or is that too complicated??

Anyway it might just be the right tool to add more interest to FM-a chance for all to learn!!

 

[Tee-Cee]

Indifferent Crucian.........(ref your post)if you read this can you tell me where you get the Revell 14ml paints from.....I have tried local shops(NOT Sheds yet!)and some have Humbrol but none the Revell brand......I'm also thinking colours like Flame Orange etc may be hard to obtain so I may need to contact Revells direct for stockists..

Similarly the Blackfriars Super Yacht Varnish-available in big tins but not the smallest they do which his 250ml....very annoying!!

I want to try both the above on a small number of floats simply because they should be availabe'off the shelf'....but not necessarily so,it would seem!

Anyway,if anyone else can shed any light on the above it would be appreciated!!

Thanks!

 

[the indifferent crucian]

Revell fluoro paints....well this guy has the orange...

Revell Fluorescent Orange matt on eBay (end time 11-Sep-10 21:19:54 BST)


And these folk have the varnish.......

Product Details

These people are a lot cheaper,but I don't recognise that tin...



Black Friars Yacht Varnish, 250ml


It seems this might be the usual price....

Varnishes for interior & exterior use


I think you are right to go for the smaller cans, I've just had to throw half a small can as it went off, even though decanted into a smaller vessel when part used...I did get 250 floats out of it, though. With most having 4 or 5 coats on them.

Sorry I couldn't help more with the fluoro paints, usually there are several sellers on eBay, whereas that chap was the only seller on the whole of the web that I could find. I wonder if he stocks the yellow too?


I'm sure many more shops sell it, but just don't mentio0n it on line. I'd certainly try 'phoning a few in your local area.

I have just found a local model shop that stocked it a month back. If you get really stuck, I'll go and fetch you some and post it on to you.

If you are forced to buy the Humbrol paints, store them upside down and you will stand a better chance of mixing the pigments in, so I am told.


Sadly my local modellers shop has just closed down, so it will be on-line for me from now on, for much of my needs in the future, too.

 

[Tee-Cee]

Thats great information and much appreciated!

250 floats-and with 4 coats each!...........are you in competition with the pro makers or do you lose a lot of floats??When do you get time to go fishing..........

The first varnish supplier looks okay-the second...well,it looks as if its been in the cow she for a couple of years!

I intend covering the model shops,but like you they seem to be closing at an alarming rate(even Yellowpages is out of date) as model makers look to the web...way of the world unfortunately.....mind you,they would hardly get rich on what I buy each year!

Thanks again..

---------- Post added at 07:31 ---------- Previous post was at 06:58 ----------

Thinking on about bird quill floats and the preparation prior to painting....

Every quill has a natural,hollow end(where it joins the body of the bird)and its this extreme end(the actual tip) I'm talking about.....it has a very slight indentation which can be fairly solid but invariably it can be soft(on old quills)but sometimes the natural substance has come away leaving a small hole and is the devil to deal with!

If its left 'as is' and painted over then regardless of how many coats of paint/varnish are applied this indentation cannot be covered,and to my eyes,always looks a weak point where the paint might chip away ........
I have in the past,if its a hole proper,filled it with a small amount of Araldite that adheres to the inside of the hole before hardening and once rubbed down has stayed put.
After painting etc it does look a better job(and dare I say)more proffesional but I do wonder if Araldite is the best way to go......its not a lot of weight added to the tip but.....................

So,any ideas fellow float makers-I can't be the only one who's noticed this!!!

 

[Alan Tyler]

I must be the ruffe slapper of float making - i just let a skin of sealer or base white form over the hole, and build on that once it's dry. Far from perfect, but after about four re-paints, you'd hardly know...

 

[the indifferent crucian]

Any hole can be filled in seconds with superglue and an inert powder, such as talcum powder, bi-carbonate of soda, or even balsa or cork shavings ( the last two being MOST useful). Be cautious though, the superglue will set in seconds!!!!

The resultant amalgam is very hard and can be sanded or filed, but would not be water-proof unless you got expensive water-proof superglue from a fly fishing outlet.

So, back to the varnish.

I'm not sure how many floats I have made Tee Cee, certainly several hundred this year alone, which is daft as I have only used two of them all year Keeps me off the streets, though.

In truth, I find it a great hobby for when I can't fish ( I simply am not as young as I once was)

 

[Alan Tyler]

seriously neat!!!

 

[Tee-Cee]

Just another person who should have a chapter or two in the first Encylopaedia of Fishing Odds & Ends(IMO)....under the heading of 'Float making for the Amateur' along with the info of George375 and others who have so much to offer...

When I'm rich(lottery or left by rich family member)I shall have this produced in loose chapter format that can then be updated in sections 'as and when'.....sort of a step on from what Graham Whatmore suggests(within this Thread)that FM should have
a permenent fixture for like minded people to use as a reference point.........of course I wouldn't have to spend my money if FM acted on this-but will they??

Spent two hours searching for decent feathers this morning(on pits where swans are starting to moult(?)with the result standing at one Swan feather.......till,nobody said it would be easy!!

 

[Tee-Cee]

Just in case its of use to anyone a toy/model shop situated in Hazlemere nr High Wycombe in south Bucks carries a full range of Revell 14ml tins of enamel paint including a flame orange(matt)and a yellow(semi matt)plus a range of balsa dowelling in various diameters along with Shrinking Dope and thinners for sealing the balsa...

The shop is called Childs-telephone no 01494 520970.....very helpful as well!!