Watching The Greats...

[Ron 'The Hat' Clay (ACA-Life Member)]

OK Peter, poles only (to give you a chance), bait will be limited to casters only (1 pint) and we will fish that little commercial lake in the Avon Valley where I caught that roach which was just short of 2lbs.

Mark will be the judge, adjudicator and weigh-in man.

Pool - ?50 each, winner takes all.

The challenge has been made.

)

 

[Peter Jacobs]

Fist off - challenge accepted.

Poles at dawn it is!

Second off - we will have to wait a few weeks as that little commercial was closed a couple of weeks ago - not sure why, but hopefully will be open again soon.

Watch this space.

 

[Peter Jacobs]

PS - groundbait allowed Ron?

 

[Ron 'The Hat' Clay (ACA-Life Member)]

No groundbait. As I said, just 1 pint of casters each.

Ten pegs will be made available. First choice of pegs to be tossed for. NO carp to be weighed in, only roach!

 

[Mark Wintle]

Having got back FM (server down?), I have to say that I laughed at Ron's selection.

This is supposed to be a match angling hall of fame - the legends if you like, and especially the brilliant to watch.

So whilst Ron's inclusion of Billy Lane is fine, and I would include Walker and Graham amongst the greats, the rest are good anglers and no more. As for the DVSG being considered in the same breath as the likes of man-fish (John Dean), who are you kidding? Bob's a good club match angler, the rest aren't even match anglers in the way I would describe them.

Anyone who remembers some of JD's match results in 300 peg Burton Joyce matches will know what I mean. The man was a genius.

Peter,

Don't worry (not that you should need to, seem to remember having to show him how to plumb up!), us old match secretaries can get you any result you want!

 

[Ron 'The Hat' Clay (ACA-Life Member)]

I was talking about anglers in general Mark.

 

[Peter Bishop]

As a teenager I once got pegged next to Benny Ashurst at a Crewe and Nantwich open on the Shropshire Union Canal and decided it would be a more productive use of my time to sit and watch him fish. Though not in any way nasty about it he was certainly very cagey and did he best to shield what he was doing from my prying eyes! How different to the late and great Ivan Marks. I once had the pleasure of sitting behind him (and Dave Downs) as they practiced on a stretch of the Great Ouse Relief channel. He was simply awesome. His groundbait found the same spot as if it were laser guided, and he hit bites I couldn't even see to ammass a splendid bag of bream stret pegging five rod lengths out. He even gave me a shirpy non stop commentary throughout and took time to show me his rig,and swingtip setup and pass on some grat tips. His only proviso was, "Dont tell them buggers from Nottingham what we're up too". What a lovely man. I had the pleasure of meeting him again about five years ago and he still talked my head off for 45 minutes!
Also fished with Bob James and watched Nuddy and Keith Arthur at close quarters but no disrespect intended, non of them will ever measure up to Ivan in my eyes. Simply the best ever and bloody nice with it. There are a few big time Charlies around these days whom no one will even lavish such praise on when they float off to the great river in the sky...

 

[Beecy]

one thing sticks out by a mile here, most of the names mentiond are from the past, the only current intenationals being Conroy and Scotthorne.


Why do you think this is ?

is it that all of us who have posted have long since lost touch with the match scene and do not know the current top men, or is it that the top men at the moment are not good enough to be clased as greats?


When reading the match results these days it seems to be the same guys winning on the same venues with the same method. Is this what match carping has done, that we now only have venue/method specialists?

or are there still a good crop of allrounders out there that we are not aware of?

 

[Mark Wintle]

Who's winning 1000 peggers any more? Or for that matter 300 peggers? Ashurst didn't count them with less than 300 pegs. When John Dean was matchman of the year he did it by winning 300 peg matches week after week on the Trent against the finest opposition around, scores of them.

Look at the size of opens now! 82 pegs described as massive turnout? League matches are generally the biggest but even winter leagues are half the size they once were. A big match is now 100 pegs. Most "opens" are knock-up sweeps.

Then look at Ivan Marks 3 wins out of 4 in the Gt Ouse Champs with over 1000 in each.

The other international is Gardner who has been at the top for over 30 years.

 

[Peter Bishop]

Maybe we just get nostalgic. Scotthorne is a brilliant thinking angler and a real all rounder but Mark's point is spot on. When I sat next Benny Ashurt we were in match of 750 plus competitors. The likes of Benny and Ivan were so good with a rod and line they didnt need a pole cup to feed acurately. The pole has been a great leveller ( and I am grateful for that) so the chap with the longest and lightest pole, has as much chance as the skilled and practiced expert with rod and line.
Of course there are one venue, one method anglers, but as most matches seem to be held on commercial carp pools these days winning techniques are easily transferable from one venue to another, and can make such matchmen look better than they actually are. Amazingly, some of these guys who fish these type of venues almost exclusively end up in the England squad.

 

[Andy R]

Mark Winttle
THE REST AREN'T EVEN MATCH ANGLERS
I may not be a legend but i think i deserve a little bit more respect than you gave me. Most of the list you gave ive fished along side in team and open matchs,plus to many more to mention sometimes beating them and sometimes losing against them.Ive fished three super league finals, two winter league finals, john smiths, ten division one nationals, three embassy pairs finals one in denmark two in spain, irish International match six times in teams consisting of Nudd,ashurst,downs,palmer,scothorne,harrel you dont get asked to fish in teams of this calliber unless ure good enough. Ive won open matchs of around 200 pegs sadly teh big opens had finished by the time i jioned the circet.I was a regular winner on the irish festivals which around 400 anglers took part. I also up untill his death fished a for man team event every year with dean and frank barlow. I have nine NFA embassy medals, six times area winter league winners.three times area super league winners. Teams fished with Bawtry sureshot won national on trent late 80s stainforth A.A won national on severn second on stainy canal. team shimano with Kev Ashurst and Daiwa goldthorpe.I hope ive got my point over as there is much more this is just off the top of my head.If you dont believe me i can fetch the medals down later in the year when i intend to do a spot of river fishing out your way, ive been told its a bit easy.
Andy Renton

 

[Ron 'The Hat' Clay (ACA-Life Member)]

Good old Andy.

He's a member of the DVSG you know and I'm very proud to have him as a friend.

And my challenge to good old Peter will I hope be taken the right way. We will do it one day, when I can get down to Wiltshire again.

And I'm sure it will be a darned good laugh.

Proceeds to the ACA I think and ?5 for each person who wants to watch the proceedings....... )

 

[Peter Bishop]

I hope this isnt going to be one of those 'I'll put my medals on the table against yours anyday'spats. I am sure no offence was intended, but everyone -even the crap anglers like me-are entitled to their opinions regarding who they believe qualified for greatness, and that is what the thread was about. Sometimes criticism hurts but on an open forum you have to take it on the chin. My book got slagged on this site to the point of vitriol by one reviewer recently but its only one opinion at the end of the day.

 

[Michael Townsend 3]

It's not a spat Peter.
Andy was simply pointing out Marks error about none of the DVSG being match anglers in the way that he describes them.
Looking at that list though, he didn't do too bad.

 

[Andy R]

I agree peter but the man does not even no my so i found it odd that he needed to lol just because ron chose me. We all have are heros and legends in angling some heard off some not so why does he take a swipe at rons maybe its a dvsg thing i dont no.

 

[Neil Maidment]

When I started this thread it wasn't intended to solely concentrate on match anglers (although my bit about Ivan obviously set the trend).

Mark and I go back quite a way. We were both madly into matches, local and national (he a damn sight more successful than me). We travelled from the south coast independently and together to most of the big venues and matches. Our background was matches so I guess it was natural to refer to who we thougt were the match greats.

I think it's fair to say both of us now class ourselves as general all round anglers but with that background very much guiding our current fishing.

You'll have to forgive us southerners, it was a lot of miles to visit the Trent, Witham, Welland, Nene and god forgive me the Leeds Liverpool Canal!

 

[Budgie Burgess]

Ive been lucky enough to have sat behind/been pegged next to/fished with many extremely good angler.In the late70's to mid 80's there wouldnt have been a single top class match angler (British or European) that I hadnt made the effort to watch and learn from.

Specimen wise I can also claim much the same but in a slightly narrower way ie in the areas Im interested in.Many of these Im proud to call friends or good aquaitences.

I could recall many stories of fishing with/ next to some of the greats.All made memorable regardless of beating them or being beaten by them off the next peg,catching a smaller/bigger fish etc etc but simply by witnessing how these truely great anglers fish.And regardless of them being matchmen,pike,carp or whatever specialist great anglers all seem to have some thing in common (and I include in that the top game and sea anglers Ive met to) and that is the same unquantifiable "something extra" that us non great anglers dont have!

I once got absolutely thrashed from the next peg (he was upstream of me as well!!) in an international match on the River Lippe in Germany by Dave Vincent.It was one of my most memorable "being pegged next to a great angler" memories.I had done well on the river over the few years I had fished there using the standard waggler down the middle aproach that ruled there.After building up a good lead over him in the first hour or so (both on the waggler) I watched him switch over to a crow quill avon aproach (very much Bristol Avon style) and catch me up and over take me despite me still catching well.All the way through the match he kept up some friendly chat and banter with me! when the whistle went I thanked him for the thrashing,sportingly he sugested that I couldnt be far behind him! The scales told a different story,he more than doubled my weights of nearly 15kgs!.After the weigh in he was gracious enough to sit down and discuss how the match had gone and why he thought his tactics had proved better.He even gave me the remaining few litres of caster he had brought over from the UK.Despite beating me and then explaining how he was still keen to learn about the way I had fished (the way we rigged up a waggler for this venue was a bit different to standard UK way) and get my advice on the other German venues we would be fishing over the week.

Strange really as it was watching and learning,fishing against and yet with a true master all roled into one.As such possibly my most favourite memory of this type.

 

[Chevin]

I think that out of all of the top anglers I have to say that one of the very best was/is Alan Brown! I know that one or two at this site will have used rods made by Alan Brown - and they were difficult to beat too! I still have two that he made for me! One of those being the 'Chevin' (surprise surprise)which I asked him to make for me for a particular set of circumstances.

 

[Budgie Burgess]

Chevin has made me think of a good point on this subject.

I still own a pair of carp rods made by Alan Brown.Even though I have always known of his status as a rod builder I never realised how good an angler he was! And if some one of Chevins "status" says he is then thats good enough for me.

The point is that there are many great anglers out there (more so in the specimen world than the match scene) that are totally unrecognised by the general angling public!

In the match world your results speak for them selves and are public knowledge but the specimen worlds "stars" are often "created" by the publicising of catchs whilst many more sucsessfull anglers choose to remain quiet.Only known to their close friends and peers.

Also the "greatness" of a match angler is far easier to quantify than that of a specimen hunter.

As an example it doesnt matter what the quality of the fish are in a water or what weight he catchs to win it is the simple fact that he does win that credits the match angler.
With the specimen angler it isnt as easy as who has caught the biggest specimen or even the most specimens really as the "creditability/credit worthyness" of a specimen anglers capture can vary due to many circumstances.ie you could argue that a 40lb carp from Conningbrook wasnt as good a capture as a 40lb carp from the Thames? but what if that Conningbrook carp had been stalked and the Thames fish taken by "accident" whilst barbel fishing? See what I mean? its a nightmare!

 

[Chevin]

Yes Budgie. I tend to judge an angler on his adaptability. A good angler is one who can visit a new water, read the conditions and catch fish. They needn't be the biggest fish from the water, often the size can be largely a matter of luck. But if he is good enought to read the water correctly, the fish he catches are likely to be good ones!