Neil, if you fly over a forestin an helicopter and look down all yoyu will see is a mass of trees, if however you are on the ground under that mass of trees you will see lots of paths and passages, weedy waters are similar to this, put your rig, hook, boilies and lead all in a PVA bag and cast the lot out, the carp will find it mate/forum/smilies/smile_smiley.gif