What defines a truly English carp?

Chris Frankish 2

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Interview

I've just listened to ****'s radio interview (from 1980 I believe as he mentions Chris yates' recent capture of The Bishop) and he mentions the weight that he and Pete Thomas arrived at using the two sets of scales as 41 and a half pounds. From how he tells the tale it seems the fish was sacked until morning then removed to be weighed with the two sets of scales then sacked again until the people from London Zoo arrived.

The weighing was done with scales verified by someone from weights and measures , who was present, and other witnesses who agreed on the weight of 44lb.

I've thought about what was said earlier about water retention and to be honest that suggestion does seem a rather pedantic attempt to somehow take the shine off Walker's record when you consider the way fish that were completely spawnbound, or possibly dropsical in The Scaley One's case have been accepted as British record fish. The Bishop was certainly carrying a lot of spawn at the time of Yates' capture. What are we to do measure the length and girth of a fish, calculate its age according to it's growth rings and work out what the ideal weight should be according to George Sharman's calculation?

The weight of 44lb is, as they say, a matter of record which is good enough for me.

Sure once it was in London Zoo no one had chance to catch it again but the same can be said of Bob Richards' fish and Albert Buckley's , oh, and Wyatt's and Andrews' fish. They were all killed.
 

Philip

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No worries Ron.

It must have been a very exciting period in angling indeed. The mystery and excitement of not knowing what lied beneath the surface.

I always felt Bob Richards fish did not get the credit it deserved …Britain’s first 30 pounder wasn’t it …looked a good fish too..near perfect linear if I recall but it was beaten soon after by Walker and by such a margin that Richards fish got sort of lost by the wayside..

What some people may not realize was that Redmire went on to produce a second 40 pound common…a different fish to Clarrisa too…Chris Yates caught it, it was extremely spawn bound but tipped the scales at 43.12…it was a windy day and when they weighed it they thought they had the record. I remember the account well…Yates saying we were all a little relived it did not make the record in the end as it would not have been right for it to go to a fish in that spawn bound condition. …How times change!

It also meant Yates was the first guy to catch a true 40 pound English common and Mirror something some of the modern stars have still to achieve.

---------- Post added at 22:59 ---------- Previous post was at 22:54 ----------

I've thought about what was said earlier about water retention and to be honest that suggestion does seem a rather pedantic attempt to somehow take the shine off Walker's record

Well if you consider it pendantic Chris thats your opinion...the fish did not weigh 44 pound on capture and gained weight during sacking/transport..how do you explain that ? ...you could say your comment is a pendantic way of admitting you were wrong...
 
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Chris Frankish 2

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Well if you consider it pendantic Chris thats your opinion...the fish did not weigh 44 pound on capture and gained weight during transport..how do you explain that ? ...you could say your comment is a pendantic way of admitting you were wrong...

In hindsight pedantic is the wrong word for what I meant to say. I didn't mean to use a word as strong as that (the wife distracted me mid post with talk of a shopping trip tomorrow). My apologies.

The point I was trying to make was that the scales used at Redmire although considered to be accurate were never checked and the way the two sets were used leaves a lot of room for error , even taking into account ****'s excellent knowledge of engineering and it's formulae. Therefore any attempt to put an accurate weight on the fish at the time of capture is left open to supposition but that's all it is, supposition.


On the other hand the fact that most fish actually lose weight after spending time sacked up ( a good sh!t will usually do that) and that the fact that the London Zoo scales where checked on site would indicate that the recorded weight would be more reliable.

Buckley's fish most likely weighed a good bit more at the time of capture than the 26lb accepted because of the amount of blood it would have lost from the gaff wound in the long time it took to get the fish weighed, about 8 and a half hours from memory.

Anyway, was Clarissa born in Redmire and therefore English or an original and Dutch? :D
 

Philip

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Fair enough…no worries…

Yes, I know what you mean about Buckleys fish. Wonder if it would have gone 30 had it been weighed fresh.

Another Redmire story I recall ...can’t remember which fish it was..I think it was raspberry ….it supposedly survived a trip on a motor cycle to be weighed on scales in the nearby village! They put it on the foot plate wrapped in a wet sack drove it to the village weighed it on butcher’s scales and drove it back! It went on to live for another 30+ years...

How times change ...can’t remember who said it but we get hung drawn and quartered nowadays if we don’t put em on a mat...
 

dezza

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In those days, the stuffing of fish was fairly common amongst those who could afford it. Walker learned the art, mainly to supplement his income. He also built rods and bred and sold Siamese cats and Flemish Giant Rabbits. In addition to this he wrote columns in the local press and did photography semi-professionally. And in addition to all this he held down a job with his mother's company as a draughtsman, and went fishing and wrote two books

Maurice Ingham once described him as an amazing person. He wondered how on earth he had the time to do all the things he was doing, yet do them he did.

But Walker was a bit unique too. He was one of those rare people who could exist on only about 2 to 3 hours sleep in 24 hours. The rest of the time he was working.

As regards ending the common practice of sending large coarse fish to the taxidermist, Walker pointed the way forward by saying that it was "far more desirable to have photographs of your capture than their stuffed carcasses. If your angling was as successful as he hoped, it would leave more room in your house for you to live."

---------- Post added at 00:19 ---------- Previous post was at 00:00 ----------

Another aspect that influenced Walker's life was that many of his family were Quakers. Walker was actually sent to The Friends School in Saffron Walden where he was brought up with traditional Quaker ideals - although in later life old **** was never particularly religious nor given to the Quaker rule of alcohol abstinance. He liked his G & Ts and wines too much for that.

His mother: Elsie May Walker nee Cooper was a fascinating character. Schooled at an exclusive girls school near Hitchin, she could boast of having Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon as a close friend and Gary Cooper as a relative.
 

Stealph Viper

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Why don't you lot start a "**** Walker" thread, then you can express all your feelings on there, this is supposed to be about what is considered as a Truly English Carp :D
 

Chevin

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As we have debated a few times I consider his motives were quite selfish & simply to prove he had caught a 40 pounder ?


I can't believe that you can be so uncharitable about the most generous man I have ever met in my life. I guess that everyone is entitled to an opinion, but it is sad that you are voicing one on a man about whom you obviously know nothing.
 

Philip

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Hello Chevin, you appear to be making assumptions. I suggest you read all the posts before you have a go at me.
 

the oracle

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what defines a truly English carp ?

is the real answer not "a crucian" ?
 

dezza

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I think ultimately it is based on how you define a carp.

Species such as roach, rudd, dace, bream, crucians, tench, chub, minnows, barbel, gudgeon and bleak are said to be members of the carp family. All of these species are indigenous to the UK. The common, wild and king carp were introduced, probably over a period of 1500 years, the first introductions being done by the Romans. What these carp looked like in those days we can only guess, but I reckon they were similar to what we call "wild carp".

As The Monk has said earlier, all these early introductions were done so that monks could eat fish on some of the fast days when meat was forbidden.
 
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Mark Wintle

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Peter Rolfe is trying to get to the bottom of whether crucians are indigenous to the UK and it looks so far that the case is very tenuous. More likely introduced in the last 300 years.

At one time there were many carp of an old English strain in SE Dorset. Not sure of the original source but a series of introductions put related carp in a number of waters. Characterised by being all commons to a max of about 14lbs.
 

Stealph Viper

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I think if you searched back far enough, there wouldn't be many things in England that were still truly English.
You have to be Practical, If a strain of Carp have been in England for say more than 100 years, does that make them English?
 

Chevin

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Hello Chevin, you appear to be making assumptions. I suggest you read all the posts before you have a go at me.

OK, you didn't say he was selfish, you said what he did was selfish - Yeah, right.
 

Colin W

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Since the death of Benson, I noticed comments that he/she was not a true English fish and was imported from France.

So what could be classified as a true English carp?

Even the original stock of the legendary Redmire Pool came from Holland.

But what do you think?

"So what could be classified as a true English carp?" well easy really its rubbish at cricket and says tally ho old chat what what
 

Chris Frankish 2

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Heres a piece I wrote up for another forum with a bit of background information to the heritage of "English" carp.

What is an English carp?

In carp fishing we often hear the term “English” carp or “English” strain of carp mentioned but what exactly distinguishes a carp as English other than it being born here?

Carp are not indigenous to Britain so they had to come from somewhere at some time in the past. Most sources of reference pin the arrival time down to around the 13th century and attribute the arrival to the import of carp by the Benedictine Monks as a source of food for their monasteries. The progeny of these stew pond carp are often referred to as wild carp nowadays. Being the simple, full scaled (common) form of Cyprinus carpio it’s thought that these are the sort of carp that the monks farmed as food.

This is probably a false assumption as globally there’s evidence to strongly suggest that carp have been farmed as food for over 4,000 years. It’s very likely that some level of selective breeding took place along the way in order to produce a faster growing and lesser scaled version of the carp. The forms we now know as Mirror, Linear and Leather carp.
It’s more likely that the fish the monks farmed were actually a mixture of the different forms of carp, these fish merely reverting to the original form of a full scaled common carp over time once selective breeding stopped and nature was left to her own devices.

The carp stocked into Redmire pool in 1934 were said to contain no common carp at all yet the small carp being born in Redmire are now predominantly commons.

It’s hardly likely that carp imported into Britain from the middle ages onwards came from Asia when there were large scale carp farming operations with Europe so we really need to look at the different types of carp being farmed in Europe over that period of time. More specifically since the mid 1800s when what are generally called “King” carp started arriving in Britain. Not now for the monks but for wealthy land owners, members of the aristocracy and finally, towards the end of the 19th Century, for angling clubs and societies.

I’ll term the different carp “races” rather than strains as they are all Cyprinus carpio just as all human beings are Homo sapiens.
The pictures I’ve used are the best examples I can find but in some cases they aren’t the best picture to demonstrate that particular race of carp.

Ropsha Carp
The carp closest to a natural, wild carp would be the Ropsha race of carp from Hungary. There is no evidence of mirror or other lesser scaled forms with Ropsha carp. These fish are probably descended from carp originally native in the river Amur in Russia and are still widespread in rivers like the Danube.
Long, torpedo shaped and with a downturned mouth something like a barbel these are abundant now in most French rivers and quite a few of the French lakes.


A Ropsha Carp from the Danube
danube21.jpg



Galician Carp
Probably the most well know race of carp here in the UK are the Galicians (fondly called Leneys after Donald Leney who supplied this type of carp from the 1930s to the 1950s). So called as the fish come from Galicia, an area north of the Carpathian Mountains in Eastern Europe.
A classically, well proportioned carp with a thicker set body and pointed ends to the tail lobes these were fairly well distributed throughout Europe and the UK. Handsome scaly and linear scaled forms are plentiful with Galician carp. Good potential for growth.

Galician (Leney)
OldLeney.jpg


Another rather special Galician
RedmireGalician.jpg


Dinkelsbuehl Carp
Commonly known as “Dinks” this type of carp originates in Germany but is found in many waters within the UK. The Dorchester Lagoon in Oxfordshire being one of the well known ones.
A more rounded ,deeper body than the Galician with large, round scales along its back and a down turned mouth like the Ropsha. Mostly Dinks are mirrors but they can produce common, linears and even leathers occasionally. A typical Dink is fairly sparsely scaled but some have a good covering of apple slice type scales (Sutton fish). Good potential for growth.

A Dink from Lincolnshire
LincolnshireDink.jpg


Italian Carp
A high backed deep bodied carp whose head appears to be sloping downwards when the fish is on the horizontal,a smooth line from the back to the head rather than having well defined shoulders. Italians are sometimes described as “gutty” which is one of the aspects of this race of carp that allows a good potential for growth. Examples of genuine Italian mirrors are to be found in Savay Lake but they are fairly well distributed within the UK. One UK carp farm still produces a "pure" italian.

Italian
Mere_11_3_2003_21MirrorR.jpg



Aischgrund Carp
Named after the River Aisch in Bavaria the Aischgrund carp is now found in many of the large lakes in Central France. With its high back and flat belly and blunt face it’s not the prettiest of carp but can grow to good weight as is demonstrated by the fish in France. Still farmed for food in the Aischgrund region. Mostly mirrors or leathers.

Aischgrund Carp
AischgrundCarpCrop.jpg


Royale Carp
Called Royale probably due to the story that this carp was selectively bred on the instructions of King Louis XIV these carp are plentiful in both central and southern France. Being high backed with big shoulders and having a long body the Royale is definitely built for growing big and this has been demonstrated well in lakes like Lac d’Orient.

Royale
Royale.jpg


Frame Carp
Another race of carp from Hungary the Frame carp is so called because of the distribution of evenly sized scales that form a border along the upper and sometimes lower edges of its flanks. Not being a particularly good growing fish the spread of Frame carp into sports fisheries is not as high as some of the other races. Can be found in Fishabil.

Frame Carp
FrameCarp.jpg



These seven different races of carp may all have played some part in the development of a resulting “English” carp but it does seem to me that we can discount races like the Frame due to it’s limited distribution, even in Europe.

So, what is an English Carp?

It would seem to me according to shape, scaling and other common factors particular to a race that most of the longer existing stocks of carp in the UK come mostly from three of the races. The Galicians, the Dinkelbuehls and the Italians.
There are different levels of the different races and crosses of them around the UK so different areas can have their own “strain” of carp that look similar. Oxfordshire for example has a lot of long, beautifully scaled carp which seem to have Galician roots. Darenth, on the other hand, in the early 90s, had a lot of Italian looking fish.
Some of these regional differences will affect how anglers view a typical English carp I would have thought. I’m pretty sure a lot of us lean in the direction of the fish that Mr Donald Leney brought over to us.
 
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dezza

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No doubt in my mind that the carp introduced to South Africa in 1896 were of the Galician strain. As far as I have been able to ascertain they were supplied to Jonkershoek fish farm near Cape Town and from there throughout Southern Africa, even Namibia (South West Africa) and Southern Rhodesia (Zimbabwe)

Where they came from in Europe has always been a mystery but I'll wager there is a strong chance they came from the same fish farm as Leney got his carp. The idea of supplying carp to this country was to give the gold and diamond miners a variety in their diet as the coast was a long way away and this was in the days before refrigeration.

What is interesting to note is that many carp in many SA waters have now reverted to the fully scaled form.
 

dezza

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Yes but as you say there were one or two common carp eg - Clarissa, Raspberry and Yates 43 pounder?

In my opinion there is a few differences in the habits of common and mirror carp. For example common carp, from my experience, fight a good deal harder than mirrors. I used to fish a lot for the long lean common carp of the Vaal river near Kimberley years ago, and they used to go like torpedoes, whilst mirrors of the same size came in like potato sacks.

The mirror carp has more of a tendency to feed on the surface than commons, although not all the time.
 
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