Why are they so successful?

[dezza]

Albert Haffke

And it didn't take much in the way of investigation to find out that Haffke is a Jewish name.

 

[michael kirby]

Guys , you have gone OFF the subject of attractors and onto rig design , its a great pity because you were getting somewhere.
Best Regards
Mike Kirby

---------- Post added at 07:42 ---------- Previous post was at 07:22 ----------

I see that on this thread one member argued for "atomic cloud powder" being better than "goo" whats the answer i dont know ?????? THATS THE WHOLE POINT , the South Africans find out , fish one rod "atomic cloud powder" fish the other one with "goo" its the fish that decide not you or me , that is exactly what the South Africans do , they narrow the attractors down until they find the right combination that works the fastest , in our 8 hour bank comps here we all fish with stopwatches to time the bites , if a fish bites in say 25 minutes with a certain combination on , we then add or subtract dips that we think might work to speed up the bites to say 20 minutes then less , until you find the combination that works the best and then stick with it for the match , if the swim goes a bit quiet we "pep" up the combination which often turns the lights back on , this is done by adding a spot of a strong dip to the combination IE 2 drops of TCP
Best regards
Mike

 

[peter crabtree]

Michael, I didn't say AC was better than goo, just that it is cheaper....
As yet I haven't tried goo, I have had a sniff of all the flavours and they certainly are different. Can you buy AC in S.A.?

 

[bennygesserit]

Guys , you have gone OFF the subject of attractors and onto rig design , its a great pity because you were getting somewhere.
Best Regards
Mike Kirby

---------- Post added at 07:42 ---------- Previous post was at 07:22 ----------

I see that on this thread one member argued for "atomic cloud powder" being better than "goo" whats the answer i dont know ?????? THATS THE WHOLE POINT , the South Africans find out , fish one rod "atomic cloud powder" fish the other one with "goo" its the fish that decide not you or me , that is exactly what the South Africans do , they narrow the attractors down until they find the right combination that works the fastest , in our 8 hour bank comps here we all fish with stopwatches to time the bites , if a fish bites in say 25 minutes with a certain combination on , we then add or subtract dips that we think might work to speed up the bites to say 20 minutes then less , until you find the combination that works the best and then stick with it for the match , if the swim goes a bit quiet we "pep" up the combination which often turns the lights back on , this is done by adding a spot of a strong dip to the combination IE 2 drops of TCP
Best regards
Mike

Its always interesting to think there might be a super bait , or a combination of flavours that create a super bait.

You can buy goo off amazon [ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Korda-Kiana-Carp-Goo-115ml/dp/B007P2F72M"]Korda Kiana Carp Goo 115ml: Amazon.co.uk: Sports & Leisure@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/314ruW7%2BdtL.@@AMEPARAM@@314ruW7%2BdtL[/ame] but the implication is that its a combination of flavours that are fine tuned on the day.

So do I need to buy a hundred different bottles ?

How do I go about fishing these methods in the UK ?

I'll be honest I fish the canal and small commercials , I don't have a Bivvy and the biggest carp I have ever caught is still under 10 lbs.

 

[dezza]

How do I go about fishing these methods in the UK ?

The price quoted on that site is wrong by the way, it's £11.99 a 115ml tube.

A small amount can be mixed with groundbait or dabbed on the outside of a loaded method feeder. I know Mike will help here but with this stuff there is a great deal of work to be done using it and tuning it in for UK conditions.

Do not think of these substances as "wonder baits". No such things exist. What we must think of goo, and other admixtures that will surely come along is that it's a whole new concept or paradigm to angling thought. We are exploiting a fishes senses of sight and smell in a far more effective way than it was ever done before.

I caught around 400 carp in 11 days solid fishing recently. A tiny amount of this stuff was used on cooked maize grains and tiger nuts.

How to use it in the UK?

Get some and experiment is my answer there.

Good luck.

 

[nicky]

i was just reading up on some sa forums and they were touting alot of different dips one that kept cropping up and was the number one on one dam was tcp.

what do they mean Ron actual tcp?

someone was on about q35 and another red tcp.

very confusing to an outsider

 

[dezza]

what do they mean Ron actual tcp?

Yes, TCP the disinfectant, its used in very small amounts as is Vicks.

Red TCP is obviously TCP with something added.

By the way, SA anglers have a whole language which many here will have to learn when it comes to carp fishing techniques. A lot of it is Afrikaans based.

 

[peter crabtree]

That's funny it was 300 two days ago?

 

[dezza]

A simple re-apraissal mate.

One day I had over 70 fish, and I was counting how many I was transferring to two other lakes. Stocking was in progress.

---------- Post added at 10:00 ---------- Previous post was at 09:52 ----------

And by the way that's nothing compared with the quantity and weight of fish some of the match guys are achieving in only 5 hours. I was putting in stints of 8 hours a day of solid fishing to heavily groundbaited spots.

 

[Jeff Woodhouse]

One day I had over 70 fish ....... in stints of 8 hours a day of solid fishing

Jeez, that's a fish every (less than) 7 minutes, and carp at that. It's more than hard work, it's a job and I'd have been bored rigid after an hour, oh look - another ..... carp, oh and another ...... carp, oh and another. How long was each fought for Ron?

Who was the person on FM who detested carp the most?

 

[dezza]

arp, oh and another ...... carp, oh and another. How long was each fought for Ron?

Who was the person on FM who detested carp the most?

One most occasions I was spending more time playing fish than waiting for bites.

This is quite possible on heavily groundbaited parts of the Vaal River barrage impoundment. My biggest catch was taken ca 1979 at Riverton on Vaal near Kimberley. On one afternoon fishing until it was nearly dark I keepnetted in two nets - 45 carp, the biggest weighed 17 1/2 lbs the smallest 12 1/2 lbs. I estimated over 550 lbs of fish. All were taken on maize in again a very heavily baited spot.

I still have the photo of half that catch.

My recent catch was taken in two sessions, the first from 5.00 am to 11.00 am, the second 4 pm to dusk. I don't fish midday - mad dogs and all that.

My biggest carp were taken on waters where I only had one bite all day, and that resulted in a horrible pudding of a carp that weighed 25 kg on the farmers scales. Not a catch I was particualrly proud of. The fish must have been very old.

I don't think many English anglers would really appreciate the catches of carp that can be made in South Africa on certain waters. The World Championships fished over 72 hours on Bloemhof Dam were won by South Africa who weighed in over 2500 kg of carp. I'll check that figure again but I'm not far out. This was in a heavily pressurised tournament with 30 odd
teams of 2 anglers fishing quite close together. The SA team used an enormous amount of groundbait, something like 3000kg of it in the 72 hour period. That is 3 metric tonnes!

Many of the teams fishing here were worried about being attacked by snakes and lions - would you believe. One Russian guy found a snake in his tent. The poor bloke, who had apoplexy, came from Moscow, and thought that snakes were a myth created by the nasty capitalist west!

Bloemhof Dam by the way can easily be seen from space. It's huge and was formed in the 70s by impounding a section of the Vaal River. It contains vast numbers of carp that are trawled regularly for food, yet it has little effect on the fish population. I have been there years ago after the big yellowfish it contains. There are also huge sharptooth catfish in the lake reaching over 50 kg. When I fished it the catfish were quite small at about 8 to 10 kg each.

Use fishmeal based boilies at your peril. Sharptooth cats are one of the ugliest fish in the world, but they can' half pull!

 

[sam vimes]

Look what might happen to your local fishery if this stuff really takes off![ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSrogdFkNvE&feature=related]Timelapse of the Chicago River Dyed Green 3/12/2011 - YouTube[/ame]
I can see it being banned when it gets overused and places look like there's a permanent algal bloom.

 

[dezza]

And I believe they even dyed a bit of the Liffey in Ireland green!

 

[michael kirby]

Not all dips here have flouroscene in only about 15% to 20% have flouroscene in, I would say between the 5 or 6 top dip companies there are around 700 different dips or "mutis" as they are called here, yes we use TCP sometimes on its own but only like 2 drops on the method bomb if we use it neat, it also features as a small part (because its so strong) in other dips such as Q35 which is TCP and MECUROCHROME, in the beginning I thought this was CRAZY when I first started fishing here but I can tell you all now it is not, open your minds and you might just get the advantage we all look for as anglers,I agree with the contributor who said that flouroscene might get banned in certain dams over there being smaller dams it will look worse I don't know how much KORDA have put into their dips, it dissolves to nothing after a while, my advice would be to try the goo and the atomic powder sounds good stuff too, and that contributor looks like he is having success with it, BUT if I was over in the UK now what I would do is this, I see that most flavours over in the UK seem to be fishy smell based, I have also seen fruit flavours in quite a lot of flavours, I would try to find a plain method feed as unflavoured as possible, then on the method feeder I would start to try different combinations of dip on the method bomb, good combinations are almond and garlic, banana and garlic, strawberry and garlic, peach and garlic, the garlic would be just say 2 spots and the fruit flavours a stripe, or change the garlic for TCP, or Wintergreen( buy a jar of Vick s and just touch your finger on it in the jar then touch the bomb) hook baits use what you normally use, the idea is to "attract the fish" into your swim as I say flouroscene is only used in 15 to 25% of dips, play around with the combinations until you find the one that is working the best, you have nothing to loose and everything to gain particularly the UK match anglers, the price of a 50ml dip here is about 1 pound 50 p, the olifactory senses on a carp are many thousands of times more sensitive than ours, the thing to really think about is that a shark can pick up the scent of 1 drop of blood from 1 mile away, hope you all find this interesting keep well Mike

---------- Post added at 21:03 ---------- Previous post was at 20:19 ----------

Well well, I have just read the KORDAadvertisement for GOO and have got a smirk on my face, I read the "story" of GOO related by England Carp angler now England team manager Ian Huntingdon, he relates the story about fishing the world championships here in South Africa and watching the SA peg next to him catching 3 fish their 1 and seeing a green splash hit the water when the South Africans cast in and realising this was the thing making the difference, and now they have discovered it and this is it, all of this is true (sort of) here is the full story, at the 2008 Carp world championships in South Africa I went as a visitor for most of the competition, being a very patriotic Englishman I was obviously rooting for our lads but I knew that the South Africans would win, they knew the waters and the conditions too well and are very very good anglers as well, when I arrived at lunch time on the first morning it was obvious that SA were streaking away, I was watching the SA pair in the same zone as Ian Huntingdon and his pegmate Mr Holehouse and saw they were dipping their PVA bags in one of our better known dips over here, I went to talk to Ian Huntingdon and Mr Holehouse who are from Blackpool both really nice guys, I pointed out to them what was happening on the SA peg and asked them what dips they had, none,I told them I was English but lived and fished here in SA, I went to my car and pulled out 1 litre of a peach dip I make for the same venue they were fishing, only the team manager and captain are allowed into the peg of each pair twice a day, I approached the England team captain Mitch Smith and tried to explain to him about the dip situation ( I already knew SA were going to win or I would not have done it) he basically told me that we knew nothing about dips here, fortunately the captain of the team whose name I cannot remember pulled me to one side and asked me to explain again which I did, he then came to my car and I gave him the litre of peach dip and told him to split it amongst the 3 England pegs and what to do with it, at the next open peg time at 5pm he did this, before we left I went to see Ian Huntingdon and Mr Holehouse on their peg and they had started dipping their PVA bags into my peach, when we left at the 6 pm weigh in SA were 1st and England 12th, the following morning we returned and England at the morning weigh were now 2nd, I went straight to the Huntingdon and Holehouse peg and spoke to Ian Holehouse again he told me that after they started using my peach dip their catch rate more than tripled, that's the FULL story of the start of the GOO discovery, I assume that at subsequent world championships Ian Huntingdon has seen the SA team using various dips, befriended Loutjie Louwies one of the SA team and Loutjie is now assisting him with GOO, the giveaway is that KIANNA is the name if one of Loutjies dips here, and TJOP TJOP is pineapple which seems to be the best known GOO flavour, I hope that this explanation convinces some of you guys to experiment with various combinations and that you all have great success, Ron I will tell you how to make your own GOO, if anyone on here is interested I will give you a receipe without flouroscene in it for a very good caramel method dip, Mike

 

[bennygesserit]

Not all dips here have flouroscene in only about 15% to 20% have flouroscene in, I would say between the 5 or 6 top dip companies there are around 700 different dips or "mutis" as they are called here, yes we use TCP sometimes on its own but only like 2 drops on the method bomb if we use it neat, it also features as a small part (because its so strong) in other dips such as Q35 which is TCP and MECUROCHROME, in the beginning I thought this was CRAZY when I first started fishing here but I can tell you all now it is not, open your minds and you might just get the advantage we all look for as anglers,I agree with the contributor who said that flouroscene might get banned in certain dams over there being smaller dams it will look worse I don't know how much KORDA have put into their dips, it dissolves to nothing after a while, my advice would be to try the goo and the atomic powder sounds good stuff too, and that contributor looks like he is having success with it, BUT if I was over in the UK now what I would do is this, I see that most flavours over in the UK seem to be fishy smell based, I have also seen fruit flavours in quite a lot of flavours, I would try to find a plain method feed as unflavoured as possible, then on the method feeder I would start to try different combinations of dip on the method bomb, good combinations are almond and garlic, banana and garlic, strawberry and garlic, peach and garlic, the garlic would be just say 2 spots and the fruit flavours a stripe, or change the garlic for TCP, or Wintergreen( buy a jar of Vick s and just touch your finger on it in the jar then touch the bomb) hook baits use what you normally use, the idea is to "attract the fish" into your swim as I say flouroscene is only used in 15 to 25% of dips, play around with the combinations until you find the one that is working the best, you have nothing to loose and everything to gain particularly the UK match anglers, the price of a 50ml dip here is about 1 pound 50 p, the olifactory senses on a carp are many thousands of times more sensitive than ours, the thing to really think about is that a shark can pick up the scent of 1 drop of blood from 1 mile away, hope you all find this interesting keep well Mike

yes very interesting - great thread.

These substances are not harmful to fish obviously ?

Why , as Ron said , do South Africans carry so many combinations ? Do the carp get bored with one ? Doubt it , are there other factors at work ?

Surely these ideas must have been doing the rounds on "the secret carp fora" for a while now - like a you tube video that gradually goes viral , I a certainly going to re-read this thread and try some of the ideas , would a subtle approach work ?

 

[dezza]

"mutis" as they are called here,

"Muti" by the way is the Zulu for "medicine".

---------- Post added at 14:33 ---------- Previous post was at 14:17 ----------

These substances are not harmful to fish obviously ?

It is obvious that there are those who might worry about what fluorescein might do to waters in SA. Remember anglers in SA have officially been using this stuff for 16 years. I can assure you that some have been using it a lot longer than that.

Fear not, this stuff does not affect fish in any way and soon dissolves away leaving no stain in the water. The coloured cloud only lasts a short period of time. The actual amount of fluoro is very tiny indeed. In my opinion its less harmful than Polyvinyl Alcohol (PVA), and we throw lots of that stuff unto our waters, don't we?

But as Mike says, most SA dips do not contain fluoro.

 

[bennygesserit]

Why do South Africans carry so many combinations ? Do the carp get bored with one ?

 

[Philip]

"It is certainly true that Lenny Middleton and Kevin Maddocks brought the bare hook to the attention of anglers in the UK and it could be claimed with some justification that they re-invented the idea. But these techniques had been in considerable use many years earlier in Europe. In 1940 Albert Haffke wrote in Der Deutsche Sportangler about the widespread use of the hair and the bolt rig by carp anglers in the Dresden area of Germany - and the basic principle of a hook that is not masked by the bait has been referred to by fishermen up to 1000 years ago."

I would like to see the actual piece by the German angler rather than someone elses interpretation of it. As I have repeated about 18 times now...you may look at a cave painting and cry out "look look this proves they had cars 1000 years ago as thats a car the cave man is standing next to" ....while I will just see a blurred smudge of cave paint that remembles nothing at all.

Do you see my point ?

The fact some german bloke may have been fishing with the hook outside his bait and 8ozs of lead on his line 100 years ago does not prove he invented the hair or bolt rig.

As with any invention, inspiration may have come from a number of places...thats not the point. The concept of the hair rig as we know it today was invented by Maddocks and Middleton...not by anyone else.

 

[michael kirby]

Hi bennygeserit, I don't think most South African anglers think any deeper than working out which combinations work in fact it is an obsession here, what happens for instance is this, this weekend we have provincial league at Verlatenkraal which is an angling venue in Bloemhof, there are 25 six man teams in the league on Saturday, tomorrow Friday the day before when the officials peg the water there will be many of the anglers "practicing" what they are actually doing is "searching" they are looking for the dip combinations that work the best, they will already have gone to "practice" with a starting game plan based on talking to anglers who fished the venue last week,each angler has his own contacts and calls them during the week to find out what to start with, then during the practice day they will refine it, then on the league day they will have narrowed it down to what they believe will be the winning combination of attractors, remember everybody else will be doing the same, because we are 4 hours away our game plan will be based upon the combinations used 4 weeks ago at the C division nationals where one of our team cam 3rd overall, when I say the anglers don't think any further than looking at the dip combinations what I mean is they try say a strawberry dip with a mollasses dip or a pineapple dip with a touch of caramel etc, what they are really doing is tuning in to the fishes olifactory senses which are its most powerfully sense, the best way to describe it to think of yourself walking down the high street and being hungry, you stand in front of a fish and chip shop, an Indian take away and a chineese restaurant which one do you go to? Answer the one you fancy, its the same with the fish except that ALL the fish seem to be attracted to the same thing on the same day more than other things, there is a school of thought that both us humans and the fish as well have triggers in our brains that tell us what we lack in our bodies that we need to live and this is what causes us to decide what to eat, we might fancy a steak but in fact we want the steak because our body/mind tells us we need it for certain things it contains like amino acids and essential fats, this biochemistry is the thing that makes the fish "actively" go to one set of combinations more than others, have you ever noticed other animals I have 2 jack Russell dogs and they can sniff out I have food 2 rooms away I am sure you have seen this. Well playing around with scent combinations ( more than flavour) has to be the way to go, as I say I don't think the average SA angler thinks so deeply about it, he just goes about it as I explained, try experimenting as I suggested you might justly get a big surprise.Mike

 

[bennygesserit]

Mike - thanks for the reply , I have dogs - an Alsation Rottie cross and a Boxer , I use a Kong filled with meat if I want to occupy them and they come running down from the garden before I have even called them. This has certainly proved an entertaining thread and maybe I'll transfer it to a greater catch rate.

More questions to follow I'm afraid - thanks !