Beaten up Carp

[cg74]

How on earth people can compare the barb's used by hunter gatherers to the barb's on coarse fishing hooks designed for catch and release is beyond me mg:

I used the earliest known usage of barbed hooks (or whatever else) to demonstrate that barbs do not stop the hook "going further in" as you claim in quoted post below:

The barb holds the hook in position and stops it from moving about or going further in.

Barbs may reduce hook rotation, chaffing/sawing but they'd be rendered not fit for purpose if they greatly impeded penetration!

 

[arthur2sheds]

On a lot of carping venues there is mouth damage due to heavy rods tearing hooks out as the fish battles close in.... a lot of anglers rock up to small commercials (3 acres or less) with hideously overpowered rods (3-3.75lb) and big pit reels and the quarry is not much bigger than an upper double to a 20lber...

fish of this size can be landed on much lighter gear. Hell Chris Yates's 50lb'er was landed on a cane rod of about 1.5lbs test curve, so why anglers need 3lb + rods for 20's I don't know.... a lot of the damage is caused by the rods being too powerful to cushion a lunge under the rod tip and tearing a hook out of the flesh causing a lot of the damage seen... there are other factors, such as too tight a clutch, too fine a wire of hook... and worst of all lack of experience in dealing with hooked fish of that sort of size

There's always going to be arguments for and against barbs or barbless but it is noticeable how rod poundages have increased as the years have rolled on and instances of damage have increased...

there is also the case that with all the info on youtube and other media there are loads of "Instant Experts" out there who have had no progression as anglers, they just just dive straight in and walk out of a tackle shop with a trio of rods that could pass muster for spodding and reels that could wind a boat in, alarms that can and will deafen at 500 yards, bedchair bivvy and a s0dding mallet and Voila' you have an instant carp angler....

 

[tigger]

The thing is Arthur, the commercials i'm thinking about are mosty fished by pole anglers so I don't think in these cases it's down to the rods.

 

[arthur2sheds]

Then the same concept applies.... just because your pole is rated to a size 20 elastic it doesn't mean you have to use that size all the time... I have multiple top 2's for my carp pole with graded elastics up to the 20.... I have yet to fish the heaviest elastic.... its about fishing balanced tackle.... if you are undergunned you'll suffer line, hooklink, or elastic break off's if you are overgunned it causes mouth damage or tackle breakages...

 

[bennygesserit]

Benny, can you guess why ?

To be honest I really don't know why.
Having discussed this with Maverick before on another site I have looked at some of the carp I have hooked , using barbless , and while the hooks are , usually , easy to get out there is often a little tear just behind the barbless hook.

I can see the sense in a barbed hook not turning , but once the barb is in I think greater damage is possible especially in the hands of an inexperienced angler.

Ideally you need a hook that doesn't turn but also isn't barbed or a barb that doesn't fully penetrate.

The question was really about the percentage of damaged fish and why some don't appear to be that badly damaged despite , I think , numerous captures. If you have 200 fish in a small pool that is fished , including match fished , throughout the summer there must be multiple captures of the same fish and yet I estimate only 5 percent show any real discernible damage.

On the subject of barbed or barbless I am pretty much open minded though myself I only used barbless as I only fish commercials or the canal and on the canal barbless seems better for smaller fish that are not repeatedly captured.

 

[maverick 7]

Benny....in reality ...there are many reasons why some carp finish with lumps of pork scratchings for lips...and why it appears that some get away with it..... though I suspect that would only be for a limited amount of time...basically when the fish's luck runs out I suppose.

Personally I think the vast majority of fish below a certain weight tend to be not quite as damaged as some of the bigger ones...5 to 6lb and up to maybe 15lb I reckon. I think when the fish get to certain weight they become very energetic when hooked and they are banging about here , there and everywhere ...whereas a bigger specimen tends to move about a little slower...barbel are very similar in this trait....generally speaking of course.

I consider myself to be a fair angler who doesn't abuse fish in any shape or form...but even after saying that....I have discovered tears in my own carps mouth when I am unhooking them.....this is why I carried out the "experiment" with barbed hooks.

It is a very good question you're asking Benny......one to which I have no real answer for except what I have already said a million times....

....maybe some fish are a little more lethargic than others...possibly unwell or unable to move fast for one reason or another...and can't fly around all over the place therefore I suppose the damage would be reduced.....
.....I honestly don't know Benny....all I know is that barbless hooks damaged my fish and barbed didn't. However, having said all that I am sure some ham fisted one day a year angler who hasn't much of an idea how to play fish properly...... may cause irreparable damage to fish on any type of hook.

Looking for an answer Benny is like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Maverick

 

[maggot_dangler]

Is that something you know or just surmised? all I know is that on syndicates where stock levels are lower than commies because getting anglers through the gate is lower on the list of priorities the fish are in good condition and all syndicates I have belonged to for the last 15 years have had a barbed only rule, if ever the anti's wanted a stick to beat us round the head with some commies provide that stick, the fish are overcrowded hungry and caught far to often, the damage comes from that not barbed hooks.

It is something i HAVE seen and maybe QIC was an exageration i have been wreck fishing many times and the gear i have seen carpies using to Drag carp out is every bit as heavy as the gear used for wreck fishing ..

Whilst on this one to the people that think a barb prevents a hook form futher ingress go get yourself a Bamboo splinter and just waggle it around see just how quickley it heads IN wards then try dragging it out and look at the barbs on it under a decent lense ...


PG ..

 

[daji]

Ethically, i believe it is for the producers of angling products and the people involved in fishery management to do the research and provide the answers to these questions.

 

[maverick 7]

On a lot of carping venues there is mouth damage due to heavy rods tearing hooks out as the fish battles close in.... a lot of anglers rock up to small commercials (3 acres or less) with hideously overpowered rods (3-3.75lb) and big pit reels and the quarry is not much bigger than an upper double to a 20lber...

fish of this size can be landed on much lighter gear. Hell Chris Yates's 50lb'er was landed on a cane rod of about 1.5lbs test curve, so why anglers need 3lb + rods for 20's I don't know.... a lot of the damage is caused by the rods being too powerful to cushion a lunge under the rod tip and tearing a hook out of the flesh causing a lot of the damage seen... there are other factors, such as too tight a clutch, too fine a wire of hook... and worst of all lack of experience in dealing with hooked fish of that sort of size

There's always going to be arguments for and against barbs or barbless but it is noticeable how rod poundages have increased as the years have rolled on and instances of damage have increased...

there is also the case that with all the info on youtube and other media there are loads of "Instant Experts" out there who have had no progression as anglers, they just just dive straight in and walk out of a tackle shop with a trio of rods that could pass muster for spodding and reels that could wind a boat in, alarms that can and will deafen at 500 yards, bedchair bivvy and a s0dding mallet and Voila' you have an instant carp angler....

With all due respect Arthur....I can see where you are coming from and I suppose the act of banging a fish around on a 3lb TC rod will have devastating effect on the fish.....BUT I believe that the vast majority of damage is inflicted by poles and "Yank 'em and Bank 'em" type whips...... not rods.

In fact....I also believe that if you use a rod sensibly you can probably remove much of the potential damage to a fish mouth simply by backwinding or having a sensible clutch set on your reel.....you are far more in control of a fish with a rod than you are with a pole. I occasionally use my feeder rod in a commercial and it is with this tool that I get much less damage with a barbless hook...I think it is mainly down to the fact that you can lower or raise the pressure on the fish with a rod but not with a pole....If the fish is strong enough to pull the elastic out...then the elastic will ensure that the pressure will be constant and there isn't a lot you can do about that with a pole or said whip....and I believe that that is where most of the damage comes from.

Of course though Arthur....once again just my opinion.

Maverick

 

[barbelboi]

IMO there are a lot of carp anglers, such as many of us who I’m sure know ‘our/your trade’ and I am also sure use it with the utmost skill and proficiency, I have many friends who fit into that category. Unfortunately there are also a lot of misguided ‘carp anglers’ some youngsters, some older who appear somewhat retarded in the art of basic angling who are undoubtedly giving the’ real deal’ bad publicity . Some believe they are copying their ‘heroes’ but are making a big monkeys breakfast out of it and pi$$ing off other anglers. There’s a big difference between Wraysbury 1 and a two acre commercial. IMO the hype from the trade and some of their repsares are killing some aspects of angling and misleading the misguided and insecure. Let’s face it, most of what is being promoted on the carp scene today is to catch anglers, not fish, you’re not fooled by it, you know what’s what - but many are and seem to spend a lot of money on gear that is completely unsuitable to the venues that they fish. Possibly It’s time for the manufacturers to get their act together and tell it as it is, but I won’t hold my breath. I also enjoy my share of carp fishing (and have done since the late 50’s) both on still water and rivers...........................

 

[nicepix]

The angling world is a much different place these days. Back in the 1950-60's if you wanted a 20lb carp you had to put the time and effort in and even then nothing was guaranteed. Now you can go on the web and pick your fish - anything up to 60lb+ is available. No need for all that time and effort that gave anglers experience. And there is a lot more emphasis on buying, talking about and being seen with the 'right' tackle. Catching fish is incidental.

 

[arthur2sheds]

it brings a modicum of truth in the old adage....

"It's Not What You Know, It's Who You Know"

I bet there's more'n a few "Celebrity Anglers" who wouldn't know a dapping rod from a stret-pegging float, but are experts at pressing the flesh, getting the deals and reaping the rewards..... bitter..? me....??.....:wh

 

[law]

Now you can go on the web and pick your fish - anything up to 60lb+ is available. No need for all that time and effort that gave anglers experience.

I'm not sure where you think you can just rock up and land a 60lb carp without any effort.
Let me know, I'd like to go there.

 

[nicepix]

I'm not sure where you think you can just rock up and land a 60lb carp without any effort.
Let me know, I'd like to go there.

About 12km from where we are there is a 4 acre lake with two pegs close together holding two 60lb carp plus several 50's and many 'lesser' specimens between 30 - 40lb. The owner feeds a certain type of boilie all year round and anglers turn up for a week and generally go home with their trophy shot.

A little closer to us is another lake, about 26 acres stocked with carp to mid 50's and most holiday anglers go home with at least a 40lb fish.

There must be hundreds of these carp brothels over here.

 

[law]

About 12km from where we are there is a 4 acre lake with two pegs close together holding two 60lb carp plus several 50's and many 'lesser' specimens between 30 - 40lb. The owner feeds a certain type of boilie all year round and anglers turn up for a week and generally go home with their trophy shot.

A little closer to us is another lake, about 26 acres stocked with carp to mid 50's and most holiday anglers go home with at least a 40lb fish.

There must be hundreds of these carp brothels over here.

Sorry, I didnt realise you were in France. That's a different story!

 

[maggot_dangler]

carp brothels ..

Now there's a new one but pretty good :wh

PG ..

 

[binka]

Could you just imagine if carp pellets became the next wonder bait for barbel?

Problem solved

 

[nicepix]

Sorry, I didnt realise you were in France. That's a different story!

Certainly is. I helped some friends today. We went out to one of their friend's places to pick up a trailer load of horse manure. I did the shovelling. The guy who owns the place has a rarely fished three acre lake that holds carp to 40lb. Another friend has a 6.5 acre lake with about twenty carp over 30lb. He only fishes it about three times a year. It seems that if you leave a bucket of water out overnight there will be a firty swimming in it next morning.

 

[arthur2sheds]

Sarnds like Essex innit:wh