R
Roto is paul bax
Guest
graham i suggest u go back to school.
end of debate
end of debate
S
Steve Parsons
Guest
Graham/Paul
I started this thread questioning why the same products were on offer on haiths web site at different prices.
I think people,(suppliers) do realise that anglers will pay top prices for the best quality goods.Some may even chance upping their prices.
The "discussion" that is now flowing between yourselves is not what i wanted this to develop into at all.I would like to suggest that if you wish to continue then maybe it might be better done in private.
I started this thread questioning why the same products were on offer on haiths web site at different prices.
I think people,(suppliers) do realise that anglers will pay top prices for the best quality goods.Some may even chance upping their prices.
The "discussion" that is now flowing between yourselves is not what i wanted this to develop into at all.I would like to suggest that if you wish to continue then maybe it might be better done in private.
GrahamM
Managing Editor
- Joined
- Feb 23, 1999
- Messages
- 9,773
- Reaction score
- 1
If people make accusations on public forums they need to be answered on public forums.
And providing the questions and answers are kept within the bounds of legal requirements and reasonable decency then the thread remains open for everyone to voice an opinion.
If the occasional poster decides to turn it into a slanging match or a personal crusade that is obviously aimed at smearing the reputation of a reputable person or company then I'll put a stop to it. They can continue their vendetta elsewhere, where such behaviour is tolerated.
FISHINGmagic WILL tolerate a great deal in the interests of debate and fair play, but when certain limits are reached someone has to make a decision as to whether or not the debate should continue, or whether it should continue without the input of certain individuals.
As editor of FM it is my responsibility to make that decision.
I have no desire whatsoever to continue this debate in private with anybody, and particularly not with someone who needs to bolster his argument with personal insinuations and accusations that have no foundation in truth.
The unfortunate thing is that quite often the hot-headed and insecure have some good points to make, but these are lost when they have to resort to personal insults to score points.
And providing the questions and answers are kept within the bounds of legal requirements and reasonable decency then the thread remains open for everyone to voice an opinion.
If the occasional poster decides to turn it into a slanging match or a personal crusade that is obviously aimed at smearing the reputation of a reputable person or company then I'll put a stop to it. They can continue their vendetta elsewhere, where such behaviour is tolerated.
FISHINGmagic WILL tolerate a great deal in the interests of debate and fair play, but when certain limits are reached someone has to make a decision as to whether or not the debate should continue, or whether it should continue without the input of certain individuals.
As editor of FM it is my responsibility to make that decision.
I have no desire whatsoever to continue this debate in private with anybody, and particularly not with someone who needs to bolster his argument with personal insinuations and accusations that have no foundation in truth.
The unfortunate thing is that quite often the hot-headed and insecure have some good points to make, but these are lost when they have to resort to personal insults to score points.
K
Kevan Farmer
Guest
My personal view on this is that Roto Fryer/Paul Bax has amde claims that he is unwilling to back up. Anybody can do this. I can say I know where I can buy Shimano Baitrunners for ?30 a piece brand new. Unless I back this up with a verifiable contact it is just a wild claim with no substance. It then leaves me with no substance and therefore nobody is ever likely to take what I say seriously.
Roto, back up at least 50% of your claims. People can then make a proper judgement.
Kevan
ps. no I cannot get reels this cheap before anybody asks, it was merely an example.
Roto, back up at least 50% of your claims. People can then make a proper judgement.
Kevan
ps. no I cannot get reels this cheap before anybody asks, it was merely an example.
C
Cakey
Guest
Strange planet aint it
R
Roto is paul bax
Guest
ok i buy my hemp from a seed merchant in hertfordshire for 10 quid a sack and it catches well it may not look polished etc but why is that neccessary?.
i also buy flavours as supplied to some of the top bait companies for a maximum of 25 quid a kilo.
i buy my liver powder,liquid liver , minamino from the company that supplies boots for half price u get in boots.
from the same seed merchant mentioned above i buy their own seed mix (aka red band) it certianly is top quality and almost 40 % cheaper than haiths . i know what bad particles are and dont waste my money on them.
as i mentioned before do your homework ( go back to school) and you will also find your own cheap supplies.
there is one sure thing in this industry and that is that those that have vested interests will protect their own vested interests.
if you dont have to pay for bait why should you worry what it costs? if you rock the boat you wont get it free anymore.
i also stated that i look after my friends and sometimes practice a bit of altruism with those i dont know: one or two of you on this site know that!!
if i tell you i can get it you can be sure i can get it.
another example of the giant fishing rip off is with csl pellets. the spot price for maize gluten is around 80 quid a ton.
maize gluten = corn steep etc etc. i contacted a northen based supplier of maize gluten pellets and asked the price (i had been told by their supplier that the retail on this was approx 110 per ton). do you require them for fishing he said. yes then the price is 750 per ton because they have betaine in them, i asked him if he meant the betaine that occurs naturally ? he said "i am not ruining my market" and slamed the phone down. if you require the name of this supplier ill tell anyone in private. my advice is if you want what many bait companies sell as csl pellets is to go to your local seed merchant and buy ewe pellets that have a main ingredient (listed first) of maize gluten and you will pay around a fiver for 25 KG. also you will get csl liquid from a friendly(sheep) farmer for under a quid a litre.
now you all have an insight as to where im coming from.
dont be fooled by what the press tell you as they have to please their advertisers or they dont get business from them: end of story.
there you go not a single mention of mr marsden: oops i lied
i also buy flavours as supplied to some of the top bait companies for a maximum of 25 quid a kilo.
i buy my liver powder,liquid liver , minamino from the company that supplies boots for half price u get in boots.
from the same seed merchant mentioned above i buy their own seed mix (aka red band) it certianly is top quality and almost 40 % cheaper than haiths . i know what bad particles are and dont waste my money on them.
as i mentioned before do your homework ( go back to school) and you will also find your own cheap supplies.
there is one sure thing in this industry and that is that those that have vested interests will protect their own vested interests.
if you dont have to pay for bait why should you worry what it costs? if you rock the boat you wont get it free anymore.
i also stated that i look after my friends and sometimes practice a bit of altruism with those i dont know: one or two of you on this site know that!!
if i tell you i can get it you can be sure i can get it.
another example of the giant fishing rip off is with csl pellets. the spot price for maize gluten is around 80 quid a ton.
maize gluten = corn steep etc etc. i contacted a northen based supplier of maize gluten pellets and asked the price (i had been told by their supplier that the retail on this was approx 110 per ton). do you require them for fishing he said. yes then the price is 750 per ton because they have betaine in them, i asked him if he meant the betaine that occurs naturally ? he said "i am not ruining my market" and slamed the phone down. if you require the name of this supplier ill tell anyone in private. my advice is if you want what many bait companies sell as csl pellets is to go to your local seed merchant and buy ewe pellets that have a main ingredient (listed first) of maize gluten and you will pay around a fiver for 25 KG. also you will get csl liquid from a friendly(sheep) farmer for under a quid a litre.
now you all have an insight as to where im coming from.
dont be fooled by what the press tell you as they have to please their advertisers or they dont get business from them: end of story.
there you go not a single mention of mr marsden: oops i lied
R
Rodney Wrestt
Guest
Paul,
Are you in the tackle trade or fishery buisness or can any Joe Public get these products delivered to their door, are they the same products sold in shops and if so how hard is the finding of the suppliers. I've seen the ewe pellets and betain pellets for a fraction of the tackle shops but I've also heard they are oversprayed "meal" rather than the actual "real" product sold in the shops.
P.S.
Ive never seen Graham use the F*** word before especialy not a flying one, I think if you read back through some of the other threads you will find he is fair with his advice and recomendations in tackle or bait and his reviews are good giving both pros and cons on the item in question.
Are you in the tackle trade or fishery buisness or can any Joe Public get these products delivered to their door, are they the same products sold in shops and if so how hard is the finding of the suppliers. I've seen the ewe pellets and betain pellets for a fraction of the tackle shops but I've also heard they are oversprayed "meal" rather than the actual "real" product sold in the shops.
P.S.
Ive never seen Graham use the F*** word before especialy not a flying one, I think if you read back through some of the other threads you will find he is fair with his advice and recomendations in tackle or bait and his reviews are good giving both pros and cons on the item in question.
R
Roto is paul bax
Guest
rodney i am in the angling trade but not in this country and only a few of my friends know this: it is nothing to do with tackle or bait production.when i buy in the uk i buy as a member of the public.
what is corn steep liquour from? it is from maize gluten.so you have to expect the bait companies to tell you that their product is extra special.
graham may be ok and i have never direcly said anything nasty about him. he personally is irrelevant to the issue, however, he was putting the other side & you do notice that haiths are a shopping partner on this site.
what is corn steep liquour from? it is from maize gluten.so you have to expect the bait companies to tell you that their product is extra special.
graham may be ok and i have never direcly said anything nasty about him. he personally is irrelevant to the issue, however, he was putting the other side & you do notice that haiths are a shopping partner on this site.
S
Steve Parsons
Guest
I've allways enjoyed Grahams writing in Coarse Fisherman and havn't got any gripe with his editorial decisions on here.
I realised myself how upset he was by the tone of his threads and in particular the use of the F word.That was why i suggested Graham and Paul ceased the discussion.
As Graham stated, remarks were made publically so responses should be made publically.
As to angers who get free bait or tackle for consultancies ,fair play to them.If someone was to offer me the oppertunity i don't think i would be interested as i like to fish on my own terms for my own enjoyement(wife, child and work permitting.)No one would be interested anyway in any of my results!
I do not like the way some of these anglers constantly push their sponsors products so i choose not to read their work.
Graham, was i out of order starting a thread like this, or is it that it shouldn't have developed the way it did?
Is Paul/Roto still on this forum or has he no more to say on this subject?
I realised myself how upset he was by the tone of his threads and in particular the use of the F word.That was why i suggested Graham and Paul ceased the discussion.
As Graham stated, remarks were made publically so responses should be made publically.
As to angers who get free bait or tackle for consultancies ,fair play to them.If someone was to offer me the oppertunity i don't think i would be interested as i like to fish on my own terms for my own enjoyement(wife, child and work permitting.)No one would be interested anyway in any of my results!
I do not like the way some of these anglers constantly push their sponsors products so i choose not to read their work.
Graham, was i out of order starting a thread like this, or is it that it shouldn't have developed the way it did?
Is Paul/Roto still on this forum or has he no more to say on this subject?
R
Roto is paul bax
Guest
i am here but there is no point in talking to myself as ill always be right hahahha
B
Birds Nest
Guest
Steve, not your fault at all.
D
David Will
Guest
Steve you had a valid point which we responded too. For my part I asked Graham to contact Haiths which he did. He got answers and it us now up to us to decide where our money goes. For the sake of balance I have tried to find Robin Red for cheaper than Haiths since the price rise and haven't.
R
Roto is paul bax
Guest
keep trying it sthere but not called robin red. i suggest you dont restrict your searching to the uk
GrahamM
Managing Editor
- Joined
- Feb 23, 1999
- Messages
- 9,773
- Reaction score
- 1
Steve, you had every right to start the thread, and I had no problem with that.
But I do start to get annoyed when somebody has to make personal insinuations and accusations when they're put on the spot. It's the first sign of a weak argument.
Haiths are an FM shopping partner, and I work with them occasionally to develop baits, but if anybody thinks that is enough for me to turn a blind eye to a 'rip-off' or anything else that they've been accused of, then they're sadly mistaken.
When me personally or FM are involved somewhere along the line it does ensure that I want to get to the bottom of any such accusations, which is why I wanted evidence to back up what was being claimed. And when I got accused of wanting the evidence for purely selfish reasons I knew that this was just the start of the debate turning sour, which it surely did.
Anglers ARE taken for a ride in certain areas of the tackle and bait trade, but that is true of the market throughout. To single out one company for the venom, however, is not on, unless, of course, the accusation is levelled only at that company and it doesn't apply to anyone else.
Saying that you can buy cheap bait, or bait ingredients, from this company or that company that nobody's heard of outside of its own locale, or from outside the UK, is not a fair argument. I mean, what CAN'T you buy cheaper outside the UK? And who doesn't know somebody who can get something cheaper than anyone else? I can get a TV of the same make and model and the same warranty at half the price I can get it from Dixons. But does that give me the right to say Dixons are a rip-off?
So, if anyone else has a beef against a person or company, by all means let's hear it. But for the sake of fair play let's be prepared to explain why we have a problem with them, and above all be prepared to publish the 'evidence' that may prove our point. If we're not prepared to do that then we shouldn't be raising the issue in the first place.
And then when someone questions what you're saying let's be prepared to debate it without resorting to personal insults and unfounded accusations.
Is that asking too much?
But I do start to get annoyed when somebody has to make personal insinuations and accusations when they're put on the spot. It's the first sign of a weak argument.
Haiths are an FM shopping partner, and I work with them occasionally to develop baits, but if anybody thinks that is enough for me to turn a blind eye to a 'rip-off' or anything else that they've been accused of, then they're sadly mistaken.
When me personally or FM are involved somewhere along the line it does ensure that I want to get to the bottom of any such accusations, which is why I wanted evidence to back up what was being claimed. And when I got accused of wanting the evidence for purely selfish reasons I knew that this was just the start of the debate turning sour, which it surely did.
Anglers ARE taken for a ride in certain areas of the tackle and bait trade, but that is true of the market throughout. To single out one company for the venom, however, is not on, unless, of course, the accusation is levelled only at that company and it doesn't apply to anyone else.
Saying that you can buy cheap bait, or bait ingredients, from this company or that company that nobody's heard of outside of its own locale, or from outside the UK, is not a fair argument. I mean, what CAN'T you buy cheaper outside the UK? And who doesn't know somebody who can get something cheaper than anyone else? I can get a TV of the same make and model and the same warranty at half the price I can get it from Dixons. But does that give me the right to say Dixons are a rip-off?
So, if anyone else has a beef against a person or company, by all means let's hear it. But for the sake of fair play let's be prepared to explain why we have a problem with them, and above all be prepared to publish the 'evidence' that may prove our point. If we're not prepared to do that then we shouldn't be raising the issue in the first place.
And then when someone questions what you're saying let's be prepared to debate it without resorting to personal insults and unfounded accusations.
Is that asking too much?
GrahamM
Managing Editor
- Joined
- Feb 23, 1999
- Messages
- 9,773
- Reaction score
- 1
The subject of ewe pellets or sheep feed keeps cropping up. That these are what anglers are being sold as CSL pellets at a very elevated price. So what happens? Word gets out, as it has on this forum. And then what happens? Anglers buy their CSL/sheep feed pellets from the farm feed suppliers and the bottom drops out of the angler's CSL pellet market resulting in a massive price drop of CSL pellets in the tackle shops.
That's the way it should happen.
Don't believe me?
Not so long ago a very enterprising company brought out a great new invention. Soluble foam nuggets. It was, and still is, great for preventing tangles, etc. They sold them for (I think it was) ?9.99 a small tub.
Eventually the truth leaked out that these wonder nuggets were nothing more than packing material that you could buy for ten bob a ton (you know what I mean).
Now look at the price of these nuggets in the tackle shops. Half as much, or less, than what they were.
But the company that originally brought them out are a business, and they charged what they knew they could get for them. That's not ripping anybody off, that's known as being sensible if you want to stay in business. Any business that wants to stay in business will charge what they know they can get for a product. It's nothing to do with what the product is really worth. It's about what the buyer is prepared to pay.
At this moment most anglers are only prepared to pay about half what they were prepared to pay 12 months or more ago. And that's still a hell of a lot more than what the product is actually worth.
That's how trade works throughout the world, including fishing tackle and baits. Those companies that don't work like that very soon find themselves in the hands of the receiver.
Get real.
That's the way it should happen.
Don't believe me?
Not so long ago a very enterprising company brought out a great new invention. Soluble foam nuggets. It was, and still is, great for preventing tangles, etc. They sold them for (I think it was) ?9.99 a small tub.
Eventually the truth leaked out that these wonder nuggets were nothing more than packing material that you could buy for ten bob a ton (you know what I mean).
Now look at the price of these nuggets in the tackle shops. Half as much, or less, than what they were.
But the company that originally brought them out are a business, and they charged what they knew they could get for them. That's not ripping anybody off, that's known as being sensible if you want to stay in business. Any business that wants to stay in business will charge what they know they can get for a product. It's nothing to do with what the product is really worth. It's about what the buyer is prepared to pay.
At this moment most anglers are only prepared to pay about half what they were prepared to pay 12 months or more ago. And that's still a hell of a lot more than what the product is actually worth.
That's how trade works throughout the world, including fishing tackle and baits. Those companies that don't work like that very soon find themselves in the hands of the receiver.
Get real.
R
Roto is paul bax
Guest
rodders asks
"Paul,
Are you in the tackle trade or fishery buisness or can any Joe Public get these products delivered to their door, are they the same products sold in shops and if so how hard is the finding of the suppliers. I've seen the ewe pellets and betain pellets for a fraction of the tackle shops but I've also heard they are oversprayed "meal" rather than the actual "real" product sold in the shops.
"
what do you think csl is? it is maize gluten my friend. ill give you all the name of a company that you can buy your flavours from as supplied to richworth etc.
r.d campbell and co tel 0208 892 5234
n butyric acid 15.00 per litre
salmon oil 3.00 per litre
smoked herring flav (ritchworth pike attractor) 17.50 per litre
tuti fruity 11.50 per litre
liquid sweetener 11.50 per litre
crab flavour 21.70
butterscotch 10.40 per litre
cranberry 16.10 per litre
plumb 11.50
etc etc
there are about 130 different flavours available in litres only, glycol based add 2.50 for oil based, powder flavour, colours etc. oh yes and all prices plus vat.
there you go thats the one ill give you .
if you want to ask details of prices and their address please e-mail me and dont wind them up or you will ruin it for all
say thankyou all of you for saving you a fortune if you want flavours
"Paul,
Are you in the tackle trade or fishery buisness or can any Joe Public get these products delivered to their door, are they the same products sold in shops and if so how hard is the finding of the suppliers. I've seen the ewe pellets and betain pellets for a fraction of the tackle shops but I've also heard they are oversprayed "meal" rather than the actual "real" product sold in the shops.
"
what do you think csl is? it is maize gluten my friend. ill give you all the name of a company that you can buy your flavours from as supplied to richworth etc.
r.d campbell and co tel 0208 892 5234
n butyric acid 15.00 per litre
salmon oil 3.00 per litre
smoked herring flav (ritchworth pike attractor) 17.50 per litre
tuti fruity 11.50 per litre
liquid sweetener 11.50 per litre
crab flavour 21.70
butterscotch 10.40 per litre
cranberry 16.10 per litre
plumb 11.50
etc etc
there are about 130 different flavours available in litres only, glycol based add 2.50 for oil based, powder flavour, colours etc. oh yes and all prices plus vat.
there you go thats the one ill give you .
if you want to ask details of prices and their address please e-mail me and dont wind them up or you will ruin it for all
say thankyou all of you for saving you a fortune if you want flavours
R
Roto is paul bax
Guest
all flavours at 1000-1 excepting tuti which has to be thinned down 50% before use: with glycol which is 4.60 per litre.
ok if you buy one litre of flavour it will cost
flavour creamy malt 16.10
postage 8.00
vat 4.21
total 28.31
2.83 per 100 mls
buy four flavours and the postage is the same.
ok if you buy one litre of flavour it will cost
flavour creamy malt 16.10
postage 8.00
vat 4.21
total 28.31
2.83 per 100 mls
buy four flavours and the postage is the same.
R
Roto is paul bax
Guest
oh yes if graham agrees ill publish the whole list on here or fax it to him so that
he can
he can