I hate the Trent

[Titus]

With due respect Brummie the Lugg is a southern ditch, and the barbel are not native. They invaded the river from the Severn.

At least try and get your facts right Ron.

The Lug is a tributary of the Wye and it's far more likely that it's barbel population came from there...........Though I suppose it could be argued that the Wye barbel are the result of illegal stockings which may or may not have come from the Severn.

It could also be argued that as the Wye joins the Severn at Chepstow the barbel could have entered the river via that source as it is well documented they can withstand brackish or even saline conditions as evidenced by the appearance of known fish from the Hampshire Avon finding their way into the Stour via Christchurch Harbour.

That could also account for their appearance in the Monnow and possibly the Taff

 

[cg74]

If this is a question on how much I give to the ATr, then my best answer is:

"Mind your own business"!

I would NEVER ask anyone how much they give to any charity. Doing so is immoral

And so is telling others how much you give - well other than the department of inland revenue.

I rather think your lack of response at the original time of asking forged peoples opinions on this matter.

It should be added; criticising people for not contributing is equally "immoral" but in doing that, you'd showing no respect for their reasons/opinions - so displaying ignorance.

With due respect Brummie the Lugg is a southern ditch, and the barbel are not native. They invaded the river from the Severn.

Whether or not the barbel are indigenous to the river does not effect how good the river looks, nor for that matter does the quality of the general fishing necessarily have an impact on the aesthetics.

The Lugg is a beautiful river, as is much of the Dorset Stour, Hampshire Avon, Upper Thames, Cherwell, Evenlode, Thame, Kennet, Wey, Loddon but this is certainly not the case with the Tidal Trent.

OK if you want a challenge on the Trent, go out in 3 visits and try and catch.

a 3 lb perch
a 12 oz dace
a 5 lb chub
a 1 1/2 lb roach

And I must add another river to my list.

Around September 1998, I caught an 8 pounder from the Warwickshire Avon near a place called Evesham.

Silly me, I think that makes 19!

Seeing as the discussion is about barbel, I fail to see the relevance of how challenging the capture of those other species; unless it's to highlight how the barbel have become the dominant species.

I'd say the Warks Avon is a better looking river than the Tidal Trent.

 

[flightliner]

Quote:
Originally Posted by flightliner
Best looking river in all England.

Just need to see it in the right conditions..like dense fog or mist.
__________________

Chubby-- HaHA hA, nice one, trouble is they,ll all look the same then, a bit like a rolls royce on a dark rainy night-- just another pair of headlights!

 

[Titus]

But now the Trent is as near as it's possible to get to a natural English river.

I've just seen this sentence buried away in a big post and couldn't let it go.

If you truly believe this Ron you are deluding yourself. The Trent is one of the most managed and engineered rivers in the country.
The upper river is still fairly natural but the middle and the tidal reaches are no more than a flowing canal separated into sections by the weirs which are responsible for oxygenating the massive amounts of treated effluence which flows into it daily. The foam which is a feature of the river for much of its length is further evidence of the sewerage and low water quality as is the occasional smell and the collection of toilet paper and female hygiene products which hang on your line and festoon all the trees during a flood.
As I said before the Trent is a great Midlands river but to suggest it is natural is simply showing your ignorance of the truth.

If you want to see a large-ish natural river in England and Wales you will have to look at the Wye. But even this this one has been messed around with. Although it has no major engineering in the way of weirs etc it has still been altered and straightened in the name of flood defence and its course has also been altered by the addition of groynes, boulder weirs to form pools and massive boulders as fish refuges to try and stop the Salmon on their rush to the spawning grounds.

 

[cg74]

I've just seen this sentence buried away in a big post and couldn't let it go.

If you truly believe this Ron you are deluding yourself. The Trent is one of the most managed and engineered rivers in the country.
The upper river is still fairly natural but the middle and the tidal reaches are no more than a flowing canal separated into sections by the weirs which are responsible for oxygenating the massive amounts of treated effluence which flows into it daily. The foam which is a feature of the river for much of its length is further evidence of the sewerage and low water quality as is the occasional smell and the collection of toilet paper and female hygiene products which hang on your line and festoon all the trees during a flood.
As I said before the Trent is a great Midlands river but to suggest it is natural is simply showing your ignorance of the truth.

If you want to see a large-ish natural river in England and Wales you will have to look at the Wye. But even this this one has been messed around with. Although it has no major engineering in the way of weirs etc it has still been altered and straightened in the name of flood defence and its course has also been altered by the addition of groynes, boulder weirs to form pools and massive boulders as fish refuges to try and stop the Salmon on their rush to the spawning grounds.

Oh no, you've done it now - you've opened Pandora's box.mg:

Though you've stated it's an English and Welsh flowing river; Ron did say "a natural English river."

He'll work on the basis that the Wye is well stocked with non-indigenous barbel. Say that the Trents alien species (zander, catfish and carp) have had less of an impact on the indigenous species.
Ignoring that on the Wye chub, grayling, roach, brown trout, dace, pike and perch are very numerous.

Oh my god, I'm off to church now, too pray for our forgiveness........ hno::doh:

 

[Berty]

With due respect Brummie the Lugg is a southern ditch, and the barbel are not native. They invaded the river from the Severn.

Southern ditch?.......for someone "travelled" your geographical knowledge of the UK is pretty sh i te!!......as is your perspective of what is a "ditch"!

Dunno if they invaded the barbel invaded or were introduced......but it's immaterial.

 

[The bad one]

Just to shout "Fire in the Hole." Are the berbel in the Trent truly historic natives of the river?
The Trent lost it's barbel through pollution from about 1920s onward, along with many other species.
The river was stocked from the late 70s onward when Calverton perfected how to bred them. But much of that stock at Calverton at that time came from the Severn, which in turn came from Hamps Avon. which came from where? Clearly not from the Trent because it was polluted and didn't have any stock when the Avon was stocked, circa 1930s. Thames perhaps?

Therefore the stock that populates it now are not historic natives to the river are they? They are without doubt an indigenous species to the river, but stocks now are not historic natives and could be classed as introduced prodigy from other indigenous stocks from other barbel catchment rivers.

 

[Peter Jacobs]

Clearly not from the Trent because it was polluted and didn't have any stock when the Avon was stocked, circa 1930s. Thames perhaps?

Hold on there Phil, does this mean; I mean, holy moley, Ron's outstanding river Barbel are actually . . . . . . . .































from the SOUTH?



Oops . . . . . LOL

 

[dezza]

At least try and get your facts right Ron.

Oh dear just a senior moment, I am confusing the LUGG (note the spelling) with the Teme.

I do apologise!

---------- Post added at 00:12 ---------- Previous post was Yesterday at 23:32 ----------


The stock for the Dorset Stour and Hampshire Avon came from the Thames and the Kennet as far as I know. The Trent was horribly polluted from late in the 19th century to the 1970s. Barbel, a species which requires highly oxygenated water couldn't survive, yet roach managed to.

As regards the origin of the barbel that were stocked into the Trent, I don't think it matters. I am not aware of Barbus barbus thamesii or Barbus barbus trisantonii.

The Dove and the Derwent, both tributaries of the Trent have both held barbel. It is not inconceivable that barbel did not migrate down from these rivers into the Trent as the water quality improved.

Of course water in many English rivers is processed sewage. A good job that it is too otherwise fish would not live in it. Anyone who understands modern water treatment will be aware that this is a necessary part of modern environmental technology. Unfortunately the authorities in many parts of the country do not operate these plants at maximum efficiency and during floods they let untreated sewage back into the rivers.

As a matter of interest, I have a letter from Yorkshire Water where they detail how £78m update to Blackburn Meadows is to be spent.

"To meet the requirements of the EU Freshwater Fish Directive, we are replacing and upgrading a number of key components. We are building a new inlet works where waste first enters the site and constructing eight new primary settlement tanks, the first stage of the treatment process. By doing this, we will ensure a much higher quality of effluent to the River Don which will allow fish populations in the river to thrive".

Blackburn Meadows is Sheffield's main sewage works.

 

[Titus]

Oh dear just a senior moment, I am confusing the LUGG (note the spelling) with the Teme.

I realised the mistake as soon as I posted it but thought nobody would be pedantic enough to pick me up on it..........Silly me.

 

[johnnyfby]

I wouldnt worry about the knockers Ron, they are only jealous the Trent isnt on their doorstep. They can keep all there other rivers while we enjoy the Trent, Don, Dearne and Rother, in near on solitude. In my opinion better than hot bunking pegs..... which as far as I know happens a lot.

Off to the Trent now to catch some not so easy one's....

 

[mark brailsford 2]

The fish that put back in the Trent from the Severn came from the Trent in the first place!!!

 

[Lord Paul of Sheffield]

Barbel in the Rother - were they stocked from somewhere?

 

[Titus]

Off to the Trent now to catch some not so easy one's....

If you still find the Trent barbel a challenge then fair play to you. It's a great river to hone your skills on before you tackle a few difficult ones.

 

[cg74]

The fish that put back in the Trent from the Severn came from the Trent in the first place!!!

The barbel introduced to the Severn came from a tributary of the Kennet, which is the Thames system!!!

---------- Post added at 14:51 ---------- Previous post was at 14:29 ----------

The Dove and the Derwent, both tributaries of the Trent have both held barbel. It is not inconceivable that barbel did not migrate down from these rivers into the Trent as the water quality improved.

Of course water in many English rivers is processed sewage. A good job that it is too otherwise fish would not live in it. Anyone who understands modern water treatment will be aware that this is a necessary part of modern environmental technology. Unfortunately the authorities in many parts of the country do not operate these plants at maximum efficiency and during floods they let untreated sewage back into the rivers.

As a matter of interest, I have a letter from Yorkshire Water where they detail how £78m update to Blackburn Meadows is to be spent.

"To meet the requirements of the EU Freshwater Fish Directive, we are replacing and upgrading a number of key components. We are building a new inlet works where waste first enters the site and constructing eight new primary settlement tanks, the first stage of the treatment process. [B]By doing this, we will ensure a much higher quality of effluent to the River Don which will allow fish populations in the river to thrive".[/B]

Blackburn Meadows is Sheffield's main sewage works.

The highlighted section is pure Utility company drivel at its finest, accidents do happen you know, here's a prime example, worth bearing in mind; this was one of the jewels in the EA's crown:
BBC News - Polluted Camberley river causes death of dozens of fish
Remember this:
Cyanide pollutes river - Telegraph

"It is not inconceivable that barbel did not migrate down from these rivers into the Trent as the water quality improved."

Very true; a bit like, not all the Great Ouses barbel were stockies..... Impossible to prove or disprove - not so "wild" fish then.....!?!

 

[The bad one]

The fish that put back in the Trent from the Severn came from the Trent in the first place!!!

Explain how Mark? As it's well document that fish stocked in the Severn by Angling Times circa 1960s came from the Hamps Avon.
It's also documented that Calverton took their stock from the Severn in the early days circa late 1970s. The Trent being one of the first rivers to receive the newly perfected technique of breeding barbel.

And if Ron is right, those Avon fish that went in the Severn came from the Thames and Kennet, then they are not of the Trent provenance. They are of Thames/Kennet provenance and there will be a slight genetic difference.

Yes Ron the Dove did have sustainable barbel stocks in it (not sure the Derwent did as it ran in those days through the heartland of Darby and it's industrial base), but the Upper River Trent at the Dove confluence (Clay Mills) was polluted and had very little fish stocks in it in the mid 1970s suffering periodic bouts of pollution until the mid 80s (Stoke area industrial runoff) and why Calverton stocked Severn/ Avon/Thames/kennet barbel prodigy in the mid river sections. The reason for this being the Trent is a big river and it diluted and dispersed the upper reaches pollution by the mid section. Strange but true the mid river was cleaner than the upper and able to support more fish life.

Yep Peter they're Southern Ditch origins.

Ron you may think it matters not about the provenance of the fish in the Trent but the EA now do when they considering stocking riverine fish species. It's all about stocking local provenance stock as they are more adapted to those local conditions and are less likely to have that slight genetic difference.

As to your question on roach believe it or not, roach are quite pollution tolerant and usually the first species, if they get in, to make a comeback on polluted rivers. On the Manchester Ship Canal and the Mersey they were the first fish to start to appear when those waterways came back from the very biologically dead state they were in.

 

[S-Kippy]

I found this thread quite interesting. It started with what [to me] seemed like people bemoaning the fact that Trent barbelling was now too easy.

Don't knock it, lads. I've not had a barbel in 4 years and would dearly love a "too easy" barbel water within reasonable reach. My fishing time is limited and I just dont have the time to travel to the Trent. Enjoy it while it lasts because it wont.

 

[sam vimes]

I found this thread quite interesting. It started with what [to me] seemed like people bemoaning the fact that Trent barbelling was now too easy.

Don't knock it, lads. I've not had a barbel in 4 years and would dearly love a "too easy" barbel water within reasonable reach. My fishing time is limited and I just dont have the time to travel to the Trent. Enjoy it while it lasts because it wont.

I quite agree, I don't really get the too easy thing. Personally, I very much enjoy catching fish, lots of them and the bigger the better. While it's not entirely natural, it's not like it's a commercial pool that's been stuffed to the gunnells with hand reared fish. Make hay while the sun shines.

 

[Philip]

Enjoy it while it lasts because it wont

Exactly. The Trent is a river in form, its a temporary blip. It pales into insignifiance when you compare it to rivers like the Avon or Thames which ooze Angling history and fame from every sinuous meander and have stood the test of time.

 

[dezza]

Exactly. The Trent is a river in form, its a temporary blip. It pales into insignifiance when you compare it to rivers like the Avon or Thames which ooze Angling history and fame from every sinuous meander and have stood the test of time.

I wait with bated breath for Flightliner's answer to that load of drivel.

So the Trent does not ooze angling history from every sinuous meander?