sam vimes
Well-known member
Would you be so kind as to post a link to that thread, please? I could do with some light bedtime reading as I listen to the patter of the drizzle on my brolly.
Martin Gay and the 48lb Common...Setting the Record Straight
- Thread starter FishingMagic
- Start date
cg74
Well-known member
Cliff, you may well being telling us "THE TRUTH" with your "FINAL DEFINITIVE FACTS" but I don't know and have no way of knowing whether your version is indeed the truth!
You haven't offered any evidence to support your claims or to disprove the others version, sadly all you have actually done is offer anecdotal evidence, in short - conjecture.
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The bad one
Well-known member
Cliff, do you know whether Martin's original photos of that fish are still in existence? I would assume the family might still have them.
It might be of benefit to enquire of the family as to whether they do and ask could you borrow them for scanning. Explaining full why you need them. To debunk forever, the myth of your friend not catching the fish in the UK.
It matter not now if the water is recognised to Martin, but clearly does to you because of the continued slurs and lies being made against his reputation.
It might be of benefit to enquire of the family as to whether they do and ask could you borrow them for scanning. Explaining full why you need them. To debunk forever, the myth of your friend not catching the fish in the UK.
It matter not now if the water is recognised to Martin, but clearly does to you because of the continued slurs and lies being made against his reputation.
bennygesserit
Well-known member
http://www.fishingmagic.com/forums/general-fishing/20910-400lb-catch-trent.html
No probs Sam , in any forum section you can sort by number of replies which is how I found this
No probs Sam , in any forum section you can sort by number of replies which is how I found this
sam vimes
Well-known member
Thanks, I'm sure I'd have found it at home on my PC. I was struggling to get it on my phone though.
Cliff Hatton
Well-known member
CG74...i see your concern but I would ask you to ask yourself what there might be in it for me, to defend a dead man. One can't be sycophantic or in debt to a dead man. I can only tell you what I and another close friend of Martin's + 3 club committee members know to be absolute fact. We were shown the pics before anyone else because in angling terms we were martin's nearest and dearest. Believe me...there were no 'mountains', mate! And why would I expend so much valuable time perpetuating a lie?
I feel confident that at this stage i can persuade one or two others to corroborate what I'm telling you. I've been in touch with 'family' as recently as two days ago but Martin had asked them never to reveal the venue because he knew what the outcome would be: Assassins and 6oz leads at dawn. To this day they respect his concern for the venue's welfare - a venue which could still be undiscovered because, as Martin told me, "...the thing is, they're all looking for a 'carp water'"
I feel confident that at this stage i can persuade one or two others to corroborate what I'm telling you. I've been in touch with 'family' as recently as two days ago but Martin had asked them never to reveal the venue because he knew what the outcome would be: Assassins and 6oz leads at dawn. To this day they respect his concern for the venue's welfare - a venue which could still be undiscovered because, as Martin told me, "...the thing is, they're all looking for a 'carp water'"
Cliff Hatton
Well-known member
Just for posterity, here's what I've just received from a close and mutual friend of Martin. There were some rather uncomplimentary-but-revealing things contained within his original message and I have chosen to 'redact' them. The message is other wise untouched
Hi Cliff
Yes that was one of the photos I saw complete with background. There was nothing in the background to suggest it was in Canada. As you say the background was just grass, but there was also a fence and some objects alongside the fence which I thought were canoes or something. After showing them to me and ****, Martin showed the photos at the ******Committee Meeting that same evening. It was a Tuesday evening, I think it was in early July and I said to him "you told me you would never fish for carp in France, to which he replied "I didn't catch it in France I caught it over here". I also noticed that his knuckles were red and sore and he told me that it was from the reel handle spinning as the fish tore off. None of the photos had been doctored and he told me he had them developed at Boots the Chemists of all places. He subsequently showed me more photos including a wooded and reeded area that he thought was where the carp went to spawn.
In my view the photos had the background details edited out so that when the photos went national (the Angling Times and a National Daily) then there was no chance of anyone identifying the water. Had the background been left in then it would have led to intensive scrutiny and could well have been recognised by someone. It is my belief that none of the so called Carp Society heirarchy actually saw any of these photos at all. How could they as they were in Martins possession and he certainly would not have shown them to that lot. What I think has happened is that Martin showed the photos to us and a few others, but left them to muse over where they were caught, but didn't actually say where. In the event the word British was expanded to British Columbia and then Canada, due to Martins visits there. If you look back at some of the press articles......... then you will see that it mentions that so and so told so and so, who told so and so, who then told so and so, that the fish were caught in Canada. Martin did not tell any of them where they were caught, he left them to try to figure it out and they just couldn't accept they came from an unknown English water. But they did.
Going back to when it all took place, were there reports of massive carp from Canada? And even now are there massive catches of huge carp from Canada (or British Columbia)?
No, I didn't think so!!
Following on from his first article and the furore it caused he wrote a second article. Before he sent it off to Colin Dyson he handed me the hand written original and asked me to go over it and give him my opinion on the content. That original contained many details that he later edited out as I thought he was in danger of giving the location away. It was later published in the edited form. Unknown to anyone except me (as far as I know) there is a hidden message to all carp anglers in that article that no one seems to have spotted. It is pretty obvious if you look and are curious enough to think about it.
Hope you like my reply.
==========================================================
I trust this wraps it up once and for all. Martin Gay: honest, committed, true angler, captor of English, fully-scaled common carp weighing at least 48lb but more likely 50-52lb, 1989, on two grains of free-lined sweetcorn.
Hi Cliff
Yes that was one of the photos I saw complete with background. There was nothing in the background to suggest it was in Canada. As you say the background was just grass, but there was also a fence and some objects alongside the fence which I thought were canoes or something. After showing them to me and ****, Martin showed the photos at the ******Committee Meeting that same evening. It was a Tuesday evening, I think it was in early July and I said to him "you told me you would never fish for carp in France, to which he replied "I didn't catch it in France I caught it over here". I also noticed that his knuckles were red and sore and he told me that it was from the reel handle spinning as the fish tore off. None of the photos had been doctored and he told me he had them developed at Boots the Chemists of all places. He subsequently showed me more photos including a wooded and reeded area that he thought was where the carp went to spawn.
In my view the photos had the background details edited out so that when the photos went national (the Angling Times and a National Daily) then there was no chance of anyone identifying the water. Had the background been left in then it would have led to intensive scrutiny and could well have been recognised by someone. It is my belief that none of the so called Carp Society heirarchy actually saw any of these photos at all. How could they as they were in Martins possession and he certainly would not have shown them to that lot. What I think has happened is that Martin showed the photos to us and a few others, but left them to muse over where they were caught, but didn't actually say where. In the event the word British was expanded to British Columbia and then Canada, due to Martins visits there. If you look back at some of the press articles......... then you will see that it mentions that so and so told so and so, who told so and so, who then told so and so, that the fish were caught in Canada. Martin did not tell any of them where they were caught, he left them to try to figure it out and they just couldn't accept they came from an unknown English water. But they did.
Going back to when it all took place, were there reports of massive carp from Canada? And even now are there massive catches of huge carp from Canada (or British Columbia)?
No, I didn't think so!!
Following on from his first article and the furore it caused he wrote a second article. Before he sent it off to Colin Dyson he handed me the hand written original and asked me to go over it and give him my opinion on the content. That original contained many details that he later edited out as I thought he was in danger of giving the location away. It was later published in the edited form. Unknown to anyone except me (as far as I know) there is a hidden message to all carp anglers in that article that no one seems to have spotted. It is pretty obvious if you look and are curious enough to think about it.
Hope you like my reply.
==========================================================
I trust this wraps it up once and for all. Martin Gay: honest, committed, true angler, captor of English, fully-scaled common carp weighing at least 48lb but more likely 50-52lb, 1989, on two grains of free-lined sweetcorn.
A great read. It's wonderful to think that these fish might be still swimming around undiscovered all these years later. We need a few mysteries. Like many others I was captivated by thoughts of such huge fish at the time of the original article.
Not all of the carp mafia of the 80s/90s believe that Martin was lying about his catch. On page 382 of 'Sir' Pete Springate's autobiography he makes it clear that he believed Martin's version of events.
He says he met Martin in Simpson's of Turnford and quizzed him, Pete then goes on to say how he thought that the fish came from Hanningfield.
I was a regular customer of Simpson's in those days and I clearly remember Jack Simpson telling me that there were huge uncaught carp in Hanningfield, (I'm pretty sure Jack did a lot of trout fishing there at the time). I remember the conversation because he was admiring some new rods the shop had built for me - close season/summer of 1990.
If it was Hanningfield was Martin reluctant to name the water, as strictly speaking, baitfishing was forbidden then - it was fly only up until recent years. Mind you given that Jim Gibbinson also fly fished Hanningfield a lot and given his connection with Jack Simpson if there were carp in there I'm sure he would have gone for them.
I often cycle around the reservoir and I always keep half an eye on the water when I go over the causeway - just in case! Actually I have always believed that Abberton is the reservoir with the real whoppers in.
Now if someone would be good enough to put a copy of the second part of Martin's article, the one with the clues, online........................................................................
Not all of the carp mafia of the 80s/90s believe that Martin was lying about his catch. On page 382 of 'Sir' Pete Springate's autobiography he makes it clear that he believed Martin's version of events.
He says he met Martin in Simpson's of Turnford and quizzed him, Pete then goes on to say how he thought that the fish came from Hanningfield.
I was a regular customer of Simpson's in those days and I clearly remember Jack Simpson telling me that there were huge uncaught carp in Hanningfield, (I'm pretty sure Jack did a lot of trout fishing there at the time). I remember the conversation because he was admiring some new rods the shop had built for me - close season/summer of 1990.
If it was Hanningfield was Martin reluctant to name the water, as strictly speaking, baitfishing was forbidden then - it was fly only up until recent years. Mind you given that Jim Gibbinson also fly fished Hanningfield a lot and given his connection with Jack Simpson if there were carp in there I'm sure he would have gone for them.
I often cycle around the reservoir and I always keep half an eye on the water when I go over the causeway - just in case! Actually I have always believed that Abberton is the reservoir with the real whoppers in.
Now if someone would be good enough to put a copy of the second part of Martin's article, the one with the clues, online........................................................................
Cliff Hatton
Well-known member
Nexus: that 'hidden message' did not allude to the venue's whereabouts but was, I believe, a message to the hardcore carping mafia. I've just re-read 4 of the 5 Coarse Angler articles in which Martin chronicled the events of the two seasons he fished for 'his' carp and they're truly astonishing. His very first fish - a common - was 32lb. That same evening he took commons of 18lbs and 21lbs.
On only the second visit he took the 48lber! Martin describes with great feeling the senses of shock, wonder and privilege he experienced on catching this fish.
His third trip produced 7 fish: six between 12lbs and 18lbs plus a 33lber!
4th trip, 9 carp: six doubles plus a 23lber, a 24lber and a 34lber!
5th trip, 7 carp: five doubles plus a 20lber and a 34lber!
6th trip, 4 carp: three between 12lb and 19lb plus a 31lber!
Martin makes the point that at this stage he'd fished a total of 15 hrs for 31 carp over 11lb and 6 over 30lbs including the 48lber.
And get these words from the third article....
"The largest which I had such a long, good look at, was absolutely colossal. Its pectoral fins looked the size of my hands. It was long, several inches longer than the 48lber. If I had had an inkling that, to date, I was not to see it again, I would have watched it for longer. It has yet to show itself again, but it haunts me. I believe it weighs 60lbs..."[/B]
This was 89-90!
On only the second visit he took the 48lber! Martin describes with great feeling the senses of shock, wonder and privilege he experienced on catching this fish.
His third trip produced 7 fish: six between 12lbs and 18lbs plus a 33lber!
4th trip, 9 carp: six doubles plus a 23lber, a 24lber and a 34lber!
5th trip, 7 carp: five doubles plus a 20lber and a 34lber!
6th trip, 4 carp: three between 12lb and 19lb plus a 31lber!
Martin makes the point that at this stage he'd fished a total of 15 hrs for 31 carp over 11lb and 6 over 30lbs including the 48lber.
And get these words from the third article....
"The largest which I had such a long, good look at, was absolutely colossal. Its pectoral fins looked the size of my hands. It was long, several inches longer than the 48lber. If I had had an inkling that, to date, I was not to see it again, I would have watched it for longer. It has yet to show itself again, but it haunts me. I believe it weighs 60lbs..."[/B]
This was 89-90!
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Cliff Hatton
Well-known member
I wish I understood computers better....
Thanks Cliff - I was just kidding when I asked for someone to post the original articles.
I vividly remember reading the series, in fact I probably still have the mags in a box somewhere. My home office is groaning under the weight of all the angling literature that I have saved since the 80's.
At that time I was still happy with any carp, whatever the size. For me a 35lbs fish then would have been the catch of a lifetime. Now when I take my children fishing, they catch mid double carp 2 or 3 in a session and think nothing of it - how times change. Of course they are not interested in trotting a float down the river for silver fish..........................mores the pity, still who wants little 'uns when you can catch big'uns!!
In this age of massive carp everywhere, (a syndicate I have recently left had 6 40's and 2 50's, Simmos of course!), its good to remember when there was still plenty of mystery waters and it was possible to believe a tiny pond like Redmire could be home to the monster that Eddie Price and others saw.
At the time I couldn't understand why Martin would not state where he caught from, bearing in mind he had written about it. Now I'm a bit older and wiser I think bravo Martin for keeping shtoom.
I vividly remember reading the series, in fact I probably still have the mags in a box somewhere. My home office is groaning under the weight of all the angling literature that I have saved since the 80's.
At that time I was still happy with any carp, whatever the size. For me a 35lbs fish then would have been the catch of a lifetime. Now when I take my children fishing, they catch mid double carp 2 or 3 in a session and think nothing of it - how times change. Of course they are not interested in trotting a float down the river for silver fish..........................mores the pity, still who wants little 'uns when you can catch big'uns!!
In this age of massive carp everywhere, (a syndicate I have recently left had 6 40's and 2 50's, Simmos of course!), its good to remember when there was still plenty of mystery waters and it was possible to believe a tiny pond like Redmire could be home to the monster that Eddie Price and others saw.
At the time I couldn't understand why Martin would not state where he caught from, bearing in mind he had written about it. Now I'm a bit older and wiser I think bravo Martin for keeping shtoom.
Cliff Hatton
Well-known member
Thought this might prove interesting to all those contributors and readers of this thread.
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MG3.jpg
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Cliff Hatton
Well-known member
Garth: the pic's of Martin Gay's 48lb common (which, Martin told me, bottomed-out a set of brand-new 50lb scales and was probably 51-52lbs in reality) were taken by Martin's wife. Only four people know/ knew where those fantastic fish were coming from and, sadly, two of them are dead: Martin Gay and Professor Barrie Rickards. Martin reported the fish at 48lbs because he felt '50lbs' seemed a touch too 'convenient' and prone to attack from jealous individuals. It seems you just can't please some people, eh! Be ASSURED...they were English fish and don't let ANYONE tell you otherwise! I and some close friends were shown the original pic's just a day or three after the big one's capture...