Otters again...

[Frothey]

Carp are not indigenous to all of the uk and are not naturally occurring in any of it. Otters are.

So it's ok if they chomp through the barbel and trout stocks?

I do find it odd that they (being primarily "carp" anglers) are trying to protect all fish, yet all people can go on about is that carp deserve to be eaten. As said, why don't you get off your bums and do something, although carp get the press - probably because the anglers care enough to do something about it - they eat all species......

 

[Philip]

Not that I know a great deal on the subject but the problem I think with the livestock idea is that wouldn’t you have to literally register every fish stocked individually and then prove that fish had been killed to get compensation ?

Although that may work for large fish like Carp which you may be able to tag or register one by one I don’t think its really going to work most situations ...you can’t realistically log say 50kg of roach as livestock & even of you could, how could you ever prove how many of them had been eaten by an Otter to claim compensation after ?

I doubt anyone will pay out on the basis of not much being caught for a few years….

 

[lutra]

Did someone speak?

---------- Post added at 19:57 ---------- Previous post was at 19:56 ----------

Fennel's Guide to Wild Carp

That puts them on less than par with a chicken me old crow. Not the native wildlife that belongs here and not a reason their mutant cousins should be considered native, stocked all over the place and protected at all cost from the true wildlife of the uk.

---------- Post added at 13:09 ---------- Previous post was at 13:00 ----------

So it's ok if they chomp through the barbel and trout stocks?

I do find it odd that they (being primarily "carp" anglers) are trying to protect all fish, yet all people can go on about is that carp deserve to be eaten. As said, why don't you get off your bums and do something, although carp get the press - probably because the anglers care enough to do something about it - they eat all species......

Yep shock otters eat fish just like shed loads of other animals have for millions of years without wiping them out. Plenty trout, barbel and otters in my local river.

 

[sam vimes]

That puts them on less than par with a chicken me old crow. Not the native wildlife that belongs here and not a reason their mutant cousins should be considered native, stocked all over the place and protected at all cost from the true wildlife of the uk.

I understand your point, despite them having been deemed indigenous by some and there being scant evidence to suggest they really are, I'm not remotely convinced. However, may I ask if you'd be happy to see the barbel being removed from the Ribble, Severn etc? To be entirely consistent with your reasoning, they'd need to be. Barbel may be indigenous to the UK as a whole, but they aren't to rivers such as the Ribble.

 

[tigger]

I understand your point, despite them having been deemed indigenous by some and there being scant evidence to suggest they really are, I'm not remotely convinced. However, may I ask if you'd be happy to see the barbel being removed from the Ribble, Severn etc? To be entirely consistent with your reasoning, they'd need to be. Barbel may be indigenous to the UK as a whole, but they aren't to rivers such as the Ribble.

Surprisingly Chris, there are lots of anglers who would be only too happy if the numbers of barbel where to be vastly reduced or even erradicated in many of our rivers and especially the ones you mention.Many anglers blame the demise of roach on barbel.

After looking at the evidence of where barbel where naturally present in years past i'm not too sure that barbel wouldn't have been present in these rivers naturally at some point in times past.

 

[lutra]

I understand your point, despite them having been deemed indigenous by some and there being scant evidence to suggest they really are, I'm not remotely convinced. However, may I ask if you'd be happy to see the barbel being removed from the Ribble, Severn etc? To be entirely consistent with your reasoning, they'd need to be. Barbel may be indigenous to the UK as a whole, but they aren't to rivers such as the Ribble.

I love fishing and would be happy fishing for what ever is there Sam. I've never personally felt the need to move fish about just so I can catch them on my doorstep. If I wanted to catch a barbel (or anything) that much I would be(am) happy to travel.

ps. I fell in love with fishing on the Ribble when it didn't have barbel in it.

 

[itsfishingnotcatching]

they eat all species

And have apparently been doing this for between seven and twenty three million years, depending on which experts you chose to believe. They are native and fish are their natural diet, we need to accept these facts

 

[sam vimes]

Surprisingly Chris, there are lots of anglers who would be only too happy if the numbers of barbel where to be vastly reduced or even erradicated in many of our rivers and especially the ones you mention.Many anglers blame the demise of roach on barbel.

After looking at the evidence of where barbel where naturally present in years past i'm not too sure that barbel wouldn't have been present in these rivers naturally at some point in times past.

It doesn't surprise me at all that plenty of Ribble/Severn regulars of old would be happy to see the barbel gone.

I'm intrigued by the suggestion that barbel might have been present in the Ribble before man made sure they were. I'm quite sure that the western flowing rivers could have supported barbel, but the bulk of information I've seen suggests that they aren't naturally occurring in rivers that drain into the Irish Sea/Atlantic.

I love fishing and would be happy fishing for what ever is there Sam. I've never personally felt the need to move fish about just so I can catch them on my doorstep. If I wanted to catch a barbel (or anything) that much I would be(am) happy to travel.

ps. I fell in love with fishing on the Ribble when it didn't have barbel in it.

Glad to hear it, but I feel that an awful lot of people need to take a reality check when it comes to what's entirely natural, or not. There are plenty of fantasists, that moan about carp, that are merrily fishing for zander, catfish, barbel in rivers they aren't indigenous, etc etc. Then you could consider the multitude of man made stillwaters that we merrily fish. I know that a few might end up with fish in them if we waited long enough. However, the reality is that we stock fish into these man made waters.

 

[Frothey]

Actually I blame man. If he didn't fish out the inshore waters, cormorants wouldn't have moved inland and wiped out the silver fish. If there were more silverfish, otters wouldn't have to go looking in still waters for food and would stay in the rivers.
We need another world war, thin out the human population and give the sea fish a chance to repopulate.

 

[robtherake]

Actually I blame man. If he didn't fish out the inshore waters, cormorants wouldn't have moved inland and wiped out the silver fish. If there were more silverfish, otters wouldn't have to go looking in still waters for food and would stay in the rivers.
We need another world war, thin out the human population and give the sea fish a chance to repopulate.

Be careful what you wish for - America's one-country-at-a-time invasion of the middle-east could well be the spark for that.

Apart from that I can't fault your logic, sadly.

 

[lutra]

Actually I blame man. If he didn't fish out the inshore waters, cormorants wouldn't have moved inland and wiped out the silver fish. If there were more silverfish, otters wouldn't have to go looking in still waters for food and would stay in the rivers.
We need another world war, thin out the human population and give the sea fish a chance to repopulate.

And that's another myth. There is probably with expanded range, more and cleaner waters, more silverfish in the uk now than there ever has been at any point in time. Don't think they have ever been so safe.

 

[tigger]

It doesn't surprise me at all that plenty of Ribble/Severn regulars of old would be happy to see the barbel gone.

I'm intrigued by the suggestion that barbel might have been present in the Ribble before man made sure they were. I'm quite sure that the western flowing rivers could have supported barbel, but the bulk of information I've seen suggests that they aren't naturally occurring in rivers that drain into the Irish Sea/Atlantic.

I think if the truth be known no one actually knows if barbel were present in our westerly flowing rivers or not, it's all pretty much guess work. After looking at the various theories I can't see how it's possible to dismiss barbel from westerly flowing rivers so i'm in favour of them being present now.

Getting back to the otters,they where here for sure and so imo have every right to munch away on any fish they choose to munch on and good luck to 'em, they're a fantastic creature that deserve mans respect. I'm sure a few extra fish can be released to feed 'em if need be . They can always munch on the invasive barbel in our westerly flowing rivers anyhow lol.

 

[lutra]

I think if the truth be known no one actually knows if barbel were present in our westerly flowing rivers or not, it's all pretty much guess work. After looking at the various theories I can't see how it's possible to dismiss barbel from westerly flowing rivers so i'm in favour of them being present now.

Getting back to the otters,they where here for sure and so imo have every right to munch away on any fish they choose to munch on and good luck to 'em, they're a fantastic creature that deserve mans respect. I'm sure a few extra fish can be released to feed 'em if need be . They can always munch on the invasive barbel in our westerly flowing rivers anyhow lol.

I agree Ian, Its possible barbel were once here in the west. All sorts of animals are believed to have roamed Britain in the past. Lions, tigers, hypo's and maybe even some really fancy fish. Maybe even barbel in the west, who really knows. But I do think without mans hand, they wouldn't be here today because there has been natural periods in time they couldn't have survive through and therefore aren't part of our natural wildlife anymore.

Anyway, we've got them and it looks like their here to stay till the next ice age, so enjoy.

 

[steve2]

Isn't the biggest problem we have with otters that we now see big fish as our pets to do with as we please? Otters are out for an easy meal one that we have laid on the table for them with overstocking fish of all sizes. Even the big river fish in most cases are only there because we feed them.

 

[Peter Jacobs]

Isn't the biggest problem we have with otters that we now see big fish as our pets to do with as we please?

No, the biggest problem is actually having to counter the effects of this apex predator that was reintroduced without any form of consultation with the Angling world!

 

[lutra]

Isn't the biggest problem we have with otters that we now see big fish as our pets to do with as we please? Otters are out for an easy meal one that we have laid on the table for them with overstocking fish of all sizes. Even the big river fish in most cases are only there because we feed them.

Yep, anglers think they own the fish and waters and its theirs to manage to their and only their liking. If they don't want their fishing to be part of nature, they should build their own and fence it off.

We anglers are like the big fat kid at school that sat at his desk counting his big bag of sweets and stuffing them in his face, then cry's when someone walks past and nicks one. To make it worse, half the time the sweets aren't even his.

 

[itsfishingnotcatching]

No, the biggest problem is actually having to counter the effects of this apex predator

There's a far more dangerous "apex predator" than the otter Peter!

Is the protection of non-indigenous species to the detriment of indigenous ones a case of, "All animals are equal but some are more equal than others"?

 

[tigger]

Yep, anglers think they own the fish and waters and its theirs to manage to their and only their liking. If they don't want their fishing to be part of nature, they should build their own and fence it off.

We anglers are like the big fat kid at school that sat at his desk counting his big bag of sweets and stuffing them in his face, then cry's when someone walks past and nicks one. To make it worse, half the time the sweets aren't even his.

Bang on Brian, you only need to look at the ignorant self centered anglers who stock fish such as Wels catfish etc and make all manner of excuses as to why it's ok for them to be present in our waters just so they can go fish for the effin things!

As people with a brain cell have said...otters are an indigenous species that has been present here since before adam....whenever the ******' hell that was, no doubt some fool will try looking it up on google .
As you say Brian, there are a lot of anglers who are only concerned with winding in a fish and **** the consequences to the other things around us! :w

 

[Peter Jacobs]

There's a far more dangerous "apex predator" than the otter Peter!

Is the protection of non-indigenous species to the detriment of indigenous ones a case of, "All animals are equal but some are more equal than others"?

I am not sure if you are referring to Carp or maybe Barbel Ian?

In either case both are considered as indigenous, and have been for a very long time.

I think the accepted time span by the EA is 150 years of consistent survival.

Regardless, it is a fact that not all animals are actually considered as "equal" either in the area of food or in the wider world.

 

[lutra]

I am not sure if you are referring to Carp or maybe Barbel Ian?

In either case both are considered as indigenous, and have been for a very long time.

I think the accepted time span by the EA is 150 years of consistent survival.

Regardless, it is a fact that not all animals are actually considered as "equal" either in the area of food or in the wider world.

London Zoo started in 1826. Must be time to let the animals out now.

There are a lot of area's, stillwaters and rivers in the UK that carp and barbel are not indigenous to then . Maybe if the EA was fit to do its job, it should be removing them.

Personally I think the EA just see's carp and barbel as an easy way of keeping anglers happy as they are much tougher than many native species and it makes their job much easier.