Otters again...

[tigger]

More accurately it was far more like keeping chickens and having a third party introduce a pack of foxes to your backyard!

Now that statement is a typical example of the scaremonger type comments that get spread about.

The rivers arn't exactly your back yard Peter, otters arn't wolves and otters don't go round in packs, unless you'd class a mother and her cubs as a pack.

I'm all for fox hunting as there is a huge number of them, i'd be all for hunting otters with dogs (as used to be practiced) if there where enough to allow it, but there just isn't enough of them and there never will be. The numbers of otters across the country is negligible and of no threat to fish stocks whatsoever, except where they have access to an artificial overstocked pool where they might act unnaturally and kill for nothing.
If fish stocks in river ever became low then the otters would be the first to feel it and pop their clogg's as would all the other fish eating creatures.

 

[lutra]

We don't know that do we - if they are going to naturally repopulate, they will find their own way and didn't need us to help - nature will find its own balance. It's where Otters have been introduced into rivers that can't support them where they become a problem.

Just because the Ribble is ok, doesn't mean that all rivers are ok. In the same way, the "lack" of carp in the Ribble doesn't mean that Carp aren't a pest elsewhere.

Anyway, let's keep the argument going round and round.......

With no more otters being introduced for the last 17 years and no plans for that to ever change, I'm sure a balance will be found.

We can be pretty sure otters would have made a comeback anyway as they have in many area's of England with out help. I'm also pretty sure otters don't live 17 years and are self sustained and living very happily in the area's that had reintroduction's. There is no reason to believe otter wouldn't have made a comeback on their own.

Carp waters are just a billy bonus to an otter, like a bird table is to the birds. Otters would get on fine on rivers its easier pickings that tempt them away. Put a fence up, problem solved.

 

[tigger]

Put a fence up, problem solved.

For the majority of man made over stocked fish pools there are no otters anywhere near anyhow.

As you say Brian, a simple solution would be a fence. If the water is just to large or alkward to be fenced then a few cage traps would catch otters easy enough, give them a unpleasant experience before being released "where they came from" and they might think twice about coming back.

 

[Peter Jacobs]

The rivers arn't exactly your back yard Peter

Erm, actually ,the Hampshire Avon is exactly my backyard, and there was nothing akin to scaremongering about my comments, that the ridiculous "scaremongering" argument may have been successful in June, to anyone who has an IQ level greater than their hat size, it is just a daft sound bite.

Otters were reintroduced in my area without any consultation or regard for the sport of angling, neither coarse or game.

We have more than enough of them here in the upper reaches of the Avon and the keepers on my local stretches are maintaining a close eye on the numbers, and they are breeding every year.
We see quite a few run over on the main road too . . . . .

There is no reason to believe otter wouldn't have made a comeback on their own.

Equally there is absolutely no empirical evidence to support your claim either.

Having been more or less brought to extinction, and noting the breeding cycles then a recovery may have been made but in nothing like the number we currently see.

Fencing is a partial solution but only really suitable for enclosed waters; you can hardly fence in the entire length of the Hampshire Avon, so we are just supposed to suffer in silence while a valuable resource is put at risk; and without any form of prior consultation?

I think not!

 

[thecrow]

Isnt this just a case of different scenario's on different rivers? on the one hand there are rivers that have had resident populations of otters for many years, the size of these populations being controlled by the available space/food.

On the other hand there are areas that were never going to be able to sustain both fish and otter populations but despite this fact reintroductions took place without any impact studies or thought.

There is evidence that otter populations were recovering on their own, slowly but naturally but as usual those involved in the reintroductions couldn't wait for that to happen and their interfering has caused the problems we now see.

 

[tigger]

Erm, actually ,the Hampshire Avon is exactly my backyard, and there was nothing akin to scaremongering about my comments, that the ridiculous "scaremongering" argument may have been successful in June, to anyone who has an IQ level greater than their hat size, it is just a daft sound bite.

Err, maybe your garden runs down to it or whatever but I would imagine it's a very short length...unless i'm wrong and you own a very large garden/ many acres of land with a long, long stretch of river?

So you reckon you can compare a wolf to a otter

Fencing is a partial solution but only really suitable for enclosed waters; you can hardly fence in the entire length of the Hampshire Avon, so we are just supposed to suffer in silence while a valuable resource is put at risk; and without any form of prior consultation?
I think not!

If the rivers are clean enough for the fish to spawn successfully and for the fry to survive there should be no reason why they shouldn't be able to support an otter population...if not then the water quality of the river etc needs some serious looking at.

As far as i'm aware all the rivers where otters where introduced had enviromental studies before they where released.

I like my angling as much as the next man (probably more) but at the end of the day the natural ecology of the countryside comes first for me and if it's a choice between catching a net full of fish on every fishing trip or having our native predators present and catching a few less fish then i'll go for the latter ...I can live with that.

 

[thecrow]

As far as i'm aware all the rivers where otters where introduced had enviromental studies before they where released.

As far as I am aware the only impact studies that were done were to ascertain if otters were already present in the area where a release was to take place, they took no account of whether the environment could support them. If you have information about where these environmental studies can be found I would be interested in reading them.

 

[tigger]

As far as I am aware the only impact studies that were done were to ascertain if otters were already present in the area where a release was to take place, they took no account of whether the environment could support them. If you have information about where these environmental studies can be found I would be interested in reading them.

It's a while ago since I read it crow so being honest I can't give you any links, I don't normally keep posting on these kind of threads as I find I just get aggrivated.
At the end of the day though, if the rivers can't support otters then the otters will just die long before the last fish and solve the problem for the people who don't like otters.

 

[lutra]

Equally there is absolutely no empirical evidence to support your claim either.

Having been more or less brought to extinction, and noting the breeding cycles then a recovery may have been made but in nothing like the number we currently see.

Fencing is a partial solution but only really suitable for enclosed waters; you can hardly fence in the entire length of the Hampshire Avon, so we are just supposed to suffer in silence while a valuable resource is put at risk; and without any form of prior consultation?

I think not!

There is lots of evidence Peter.

Otters have repopulated large area's of England with no help from reintroduction's.

Reintroduced otters no longer exist, only their offspring and in most cases I know of, in far better numbers than they were reintroduced at. That tells us that the waters were capable of sustaining otters. So it would seem their natural spread would have carried on if it was not for the reintroduced otters.

Otters are territorial and numbers will stabilize. They drive their young away and will protect their territory which can be tens of miles of river from other otters. The ones you see dead on the road will probably be the young that have been driven away.

There was consultation Peter, it was with the relevant bodies at the time. The EA, NE and other conservation groups. There was no AT back then.

Anyway they probably know most anglers don't like anything that even looks at a fish and haven't a clue about sustainability........... So why bother trying to talking to anglers if they didn't need to?

 

[Frothey]

Err, maybe your garden runs down to it or whatever but I would imagine it's a very short length...unless i'm wrong and you own a very large garden/ many acres of land with a long, long stretch of river?.

Peters place is measured in counties, not acres. David Gower has an inferiority complex about it.

 

[fishface1]

"Otters were reintroduced in my area without any consultation or regard for the sport of angling, neither coarse or game."

Hi Peter, just out of interest, do you think that otters had completely gone from the Hampshire Avon? How many do you believe were released?

 

[Peter Jacobs]

" just out of interest, do you think that otters had completely gone from the Hampshire Avon? How many do you believe were released?

Let me put it this way: I have lived and fished in this areas for many decades and prior to the reintroduction had not seen a single otter for over 30 years.

This year alone I have seen 8 dead on the road which runs parallel with the river here in the upper reaches.

I have no idea, and in all probability no one else does either, as to how many were reintroduced here, either legally or otherwise.

There is a relatively local establishment where there are (allegedly) quite often escapees, well, according the owners they are "escapees"

 

[lutra]

" just out of interest, do you think that otters had completely gone from the Hampshire Avon? How many do you believe were released?

Let me put it this way: I have lived and fished in this areas for many decades and prior to the reintroduction had not seen a single otter for over 30 years.

This year alone I have seen 8 dead on the road which runs parallel with the river here in the upper reaches.

I have no idea, and in all probability no one else does either, as to how many were reintroduced here, either legally or otherwise.

There is a relatively local establishment where there are (allegedly) quite often escapees, well, according the owners they are "escapees"

Roads kill for otters is about 150 a year in England. Thats more than ever got reintroduced.

The EA and old NRA have done a number of national otter surveys going back to The 1970's. Results seem to show otters were never quite as absent from parts of England as I thought they were. Just very low in numbers in many places. I'm not sure Wiltshire was ever completely void of them.

 

[fishface1]

If you speak to Keepers/estate managers on the Middle Avon , they are under no illusion that the otters ever completely left the river. There certainly are many more now, but is this because of increased natural fecundity, stopping the hunt, and (less?) shooting, or the possibility that somebody may, or may not, have released an otter or three into the system?

However, I do agree that in certain situations too many otters were released without proper consultation, but I suspect this is not the case on your local rivers Peter.

 

[Peter Jacobs]

Well, funnily enough I am a member of two middle Avon syndicates and the keepers there have an altogether different point of view to that which you expound.

Otters were so virtually extinct that there was only ever a very rare sighting.

These days, as I said, we see quite a few dead on the roadside . . . some apparently run over by lead pellets.; not that I would support that sort of action.

That said, t is a fact that on quite a few expensive beats on the Test and Itchen these days you cannot fish until after 8am due to the keepers undertaking vermin control in the early hours.

 

[fishface1]

Interesting.... We must be speaking to different people then.

Also, you've expounded this lead pellet thing before - you do realise that until recently most otters that were reported dead on the roadside by members of the public were picked up and examined by vets? I'm not aware that a single one was found to contain evidence of gun shot wounds.

 

[lutra]

If you speak to Keepers/estate managers on the Middle Avon , they are under no illusion that the otters ever completely left the river. There certainly are many more now, but is this because of increased natural fecundity, stopping the hunt, and (less?) shooting, or the possibility that somebody may, or may not, have released an otter or three into the system?

However, I do agree that in certain situations too many otters were released without proper consultation, but I suspect this is not the case on your local rivers Peter.

It's mainly because we no longer use nasty things like DDT which were band in the late 60's. Given a few more years (late 70's) for them to work their way out of the land and food chain, wild otters could live and breed much more successfully again and start to make their numbers back up and spread out.

As this was at the same time that otters started to be released, we can't be truly sure how bigger part the releases have played.

 

[Frothey]

Interesting.... We must be speaking to different people then.

Also, you've expounded this lead pellet thing before - you do realise that until recently most otters that were reported dead on the roadside by members of the public were picked up and examined by vets? I'm not aware that a single one was found to contain evidence of gun shot wounds.

Maybe the vets were also anglers..... lol

 

[thecrow]

Might have been this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3MUX3V0aUE

 

[Frothey]

Or this one