So what is the Magic Marker ?

[Judas Priest]

To clarify before certain folks start foaming at the mouth over this

Yes I am one of THEM who just enjoys being there and catching a fish is a bonus. Don't set myself targets, don't work really hard at it, and certainly don't measure any success by weight.

I enjoy catching fish but "targets" are for paid employment, "working really hard at it" are for paid employment.

 

[dezza]

Why feel sorry for them Ron? Isn't that a mite patronising?
Surely they're fishing on their own terms (which we all do), which is their personal choice to make, not yours to judge?

I buy my (limited number of) club tickets on the basis that the venues hold a potential personal best.
I don't expect to catch one every time I go, but the fact that they're in there gives me a target to aim for, for myself. If I didn't have that attitude I might as well fish Bob's garden pond or the local carp puddle. I'd see just as much wildlife!

No I don't think I'm being patronising, I genuinely feel sorry for them.

But after a lifetime of "specimen hunting", and in many other parts of the world, I sometimes feel it is all so futile and the catches I remember most were certainly not the biggest fish I have ever caught.

How do you think a PB should be judged, purely on the basis of weight?

Personally I think not.

 

[Simon K]

No I don't think I'm being patronising, I genuinely feel sorry for them.

But after a lifetime of "specimen hunting", and in many other parts of the world, I sometimes feel it is all so futile and the catches I remember most were certainly not the biggest fish I have ever caught.

How do you think a PB should be judged, purely on the basis of weight?

Personally I think not.

Ron, surely you're not saying you think you wasted your angling life?

While you were a Specimen Hunter, you fished to set of personal goals which, at the time (I assume) gave you enjoyment.
Now, with that part of your angling life over with, you can fish to a different set of goals, but do you really regret that previous experience?

I dare say I will get to a point where I'm no longer able to devote the energy or commitment to my current style of fishing, but I doubt that I'll have cause to regret it, or disparage it in others?

In the UK, where I fish, we base our captures on weight. In, for example, the U.S. it's length I believe. Certainly for certain species.

Regardless of "how" it's just a handy and accepted benchmark.

At least one of the best fish I've ever caught was not a PB, but it was from an extremely hard water where any capture of any size of that species is the target.

I have a sneaky suspicion its roots are in the hunter/gatherer culture from our past where the biggest fish (or overall catch) denoted the best "provider" for a potential "mate", family or tribe. :wh

Which is probably why it's a predominantly male-dominated past-time.

 

[sam vimes]

Perhaps you missed the point Sam? I clearly stated the primary reason for going is to catch and that for me there's more to it than just that. Agreed that by finishing with the statement "shame on you" perhaps is unfair on those that can only find pleasure in catching.

I've no problem with you doing whatever it is that flloats you boat. As you correctly surmised it's the "shame on you" bit that I find ridiculous. there's undoubtedly more to fishing than just catching but for some it's a bigger part than for others. There's certainly no shame in that. Catch at all costs may be a different story.

 

[Steve Pope]

Steve,

What is your attutude if you catch a barbel of 9lbs 15 oz that is in the peak of condition and fights like stink, compared with catching say a 14 pounder that is in a sorry state with half a dorsal fin and comes in like a sack of spuds!

Hi Ron,

Again being totally honest there would be a very slight tinge of disappointment with the missing ounce but it would immediately pass.

On the fourteen I'm always happy to see one of those in the net, they don't appear that often on the venues I frequent, but I would be saddened by its condition.

Picking up on another point about working hard at it, we surely all do that when we go out to fish "seriously."

My fishing comprises Guiding, social, investigating new venues and serious stuff for myself. No matter what mindset I'm in I love being there, appreciate the scenery and wildlife but I'm there to catch fish otherwise I'd go for a walk outside and keep the missus happy!

It really is each to their own on this one but I'll repeat I often smile when someone talks about just being there, we are all there, its often a euphamism for not catching and dare I say not working hard enough!!

 

[dezza]

In the UK, where I fish, we base our captures on weight. In, for example, the U.S. it's length I believe. Certainly for certain species.

Regardless of "how" it's just a handy and accepted benchmark.

At least one of the best fish I've ever caught was not a PB, but it was from an extremely hard water where any capture of any size of that species is the target.

In the USA it's very much on weight, although they do seem to value condition and fighting quality more than we do here. Some of the predatory speces such as Muskellunge and Northern Pike are measured. All their record species as listed by IGFA are based on weight

The Dutch and Belgians go a lot on length and measure virtually all the fish they catch. They also weigh them and a few I have spoken to in the past often rate fish on condition factor.

I certainly do not think my earlier angling life was wasted. I enjoyed it too much for that. It's just that as time passes, and by noting what were the memorable catches, a different set of values has become apparent.

I came across on old faded photo of a 20 kg carp I caught many years ago. Quite frankly I had forgotten about that fish. But I'll never forget the first yellowfish I ever caught using the fly rod. It was only a modest weight - 2.23 kg, but it went like a torpedo.

 

[Nathan Walter]

To be honest Sam, my comments were about the 'catch at all cost' mindset. Again, it's the individuals choice. I'd be a total liar if I didn't admit that there are times when I have gone out and failed to catch what I had hoped to and been very disappointed. I'm human after all (despite the rumours) and I am an angler, so the very point of being there is to hopefully catch.

There has been many a time when I've stopped to re-evaluate things when my results have been poor. To look around and be grateful for what I've got. And I do the same when I am catching and doing well. I can honestly say though, I've never felt disappointed with a fish that has been under a generally accepted 'specimen' weight. I don't care if a barbel is 9lb 15oz or 10lb. I love to catch big fish, but I'm not disappointed if they are not. I don't find myself wishing it had been bigger.

We all have different agendas, different goals. Whatever they are, it doesn't mean we are poor anglers or poor people, we just want different things from our pursuit.

 

[Simon K]

Then there is the other who would also not put a rod together if there was not the chance of catching a personal best.

OK, so we both appear to agree that I am probably currently in that category and you were in that category. Since you say that you have no regrets over that, how can you now say that you feel sorry for anglers with that attitude?



Since the majority of improvements and "edges" that have made for a better angling experience for us all have come from specimen fishing and match fishing combined, I find your attitude hard to comprehend.

---------- Post added at 12:47 ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 ----------

I'd be a total liar if I didn't admit that there are times when I have gone out and failed to catch what I had hoped to and been very disappointed.

There has been many a time when I've stopped to re-evaluate things when my results have been poor.

Imo, that's what a good angler does all the time.

 

[Titus]

It's a personal thing but I always think a fish of 2/3 of the river record is a specimen. So, on the Severn for example where the record is 16.5 (or 16.2 if, like me, you still recognise the Maddocks fish), a fish of 10lb 12oz would fit the bill. However, if you are fishing the Dove where the river record is 17.11 you would need to catch a near 13 pound fish to achieve specimen hunter status.
I must stress though it is a personal thing and my own criteria is also open to adjustment, for instance if I'm fishing the Ouse where the record is in excess of 21 lb I would need to catch a 14lb fish to achieve specimen status, but that group of fish from Adams are pretty widely accepted as being a bit of a freak, with that in mind if I caught a 12 from the Ouse I would consider it a specimen though I know others would disagree.
Basically you can only catch what's in front of you.

As for the pleasure of being there, I consider fishing to be a recreation thing and targets to be a work thing, I've had my share of bigger than average fish from several different rivers, I've also caught thousands of barbel from all over the country but if I'm in decent company I'm just as happy chewing the fat and drinking tea as I am chasing monsters.

 

[dezza]

Since the majority of improvements and "edges" that have made for a better angling experience for us all have come from specimen fishing and match fishing combined, I find your attitude hard to comprehend.

What I find difficult to comprehend are those who have caught barbel say to 18 lbs, yet won't fish the River Swale where an eight pound fish is a big one because there is no way they can beat their "personal best".

The fact that a lot of angling innovations have come from the ranks of specimen hunters and match anglers has nothing to do with the subject. I have met many match anglers who love fishing for its own sake, and have met many specimen hunters who are just as happy to catch an eight pound Yorkshire barbel as they are to catch a 12 lb Trent barbel.

Its all a matter of having a balanced realistic view. Angling is a relative sport.

 

[Paul Boote]

When I'm fishing "seriously" for myself I hope and expect to catch doubles, thats being totally honest.

I'm not there to smell the roses, I do believe there is a lot of old baloney written about that.

I enjoy every barbel I catch, that goes without saying, but its a double that does it for me.

I'm well past the point where its an obsession and I won't make too many sacrifices in the pursuit of "doubles" and if as is often the case the day goes by without any action a fourpounder will ultimately bring a huge smile.

Every one is different and rightly so.

Yes, they are - people - Anglers - all very different - yet I still reckon that the "no roses" option is a recipe for stroke-pulling, bad behaviour and attitude and, ultimately (very quickly in a lot of cases), "Why bother?" burn-out and certain ex-fisherdom if an angler becomes some mere "I want a biggie and booger the rest", one-trick pony.

I have seen so many very fine (and many more not so fine) carp fishers go this way, a few of the first grouping out of fishing now entirely, with rather more of them, I hear, trying to do what that oddball Boote was doing when they first met him on waters, in tackleshops and at shows 20, 30, 40 years ago - fishing for all sorts of fish, and fishing for them rather well and sometimes highly successfully, with the One True Way blinkers off and nose not merely directed at just one species and at the water that's currently offering the biggest bang for your Angling buck.

I'm far too old and experienced - and, particularly, too much of a free spirit - to preach about what is "Wrong" or "Right" in Angling, yet do implore those just starting on the Angling Path and those who have had a bit of success over its first mile or two to consider that it can be a long, glorious, highly varied, ever mysterious and challenging and enormously personally rewarding one if you don't get bogged down early in the mire...

 

[Damian Kimmins]

I can empathise with that philosophy Paul.
I think ultimately it comes down to an understanding in the value of not having.
I know this might sound like some strange self help reverse psychology, but I think I could become bored of actually catching barbel. I think because of that, I actually derive some pleasure from not actually catching sometimes, providing the weather has been marginally pleasant of course.
Only yesterday I found myself having lost a fish on my first cast and consequently spending the rest of the day, biteless, almost in a meditative state being hypnotised by the actions of everything around me. Having been entranced by the swan and what it was doing literally only yards from me all day long, both in the water and on the bank around me, I almost became the thing.
It was pretty bloody magical!
On days on which the weather isn't quite conducive to my enjoying it, or there might not be much to take my fascintion, then yes, a barbel (or anything for that matter) on the bank will bring about great enjoyment.
The magic marker? The middle road!

Regards

Damian

 

[Titus]

I can empathise with that philosophy Paul.
I think ultimately it comes down to an understanding in the value of not having.
I know this might sound like some strange self help reverse psychology, but I think I could become bored of actually catching barbel. I think because of that, I actually derive some pleasure from not actually catching sometimes, providing the weather has been marginally pleasant of course.
Only yesterday I found myself having lost a fish on my first cast and consequently spending the rest of the day, biteless, almost in a meditative state being hypnotised by the actions of everything around me. Having been entranced by the swan and what it was doing literally only yards from me all day long, both in the water and on the bank around me, I almost became the thing.
It was pretty bloody magical!
On days on which the weather isn't quite conducive to my enjoying it, or there might not be much to take my fascintion, then yes, a barbel (or anything for that matter) on the bank will bring about great enjoyment.
The magic marker? The middle road!

Regards

Damian

If that is our destiny, you cannot change it. But do not go in fear. Fear is eternal darkness. Go instead with inner strength. For it is like a deep river, into which all streams flow. It increases, always moving forward. And soon, there is nothing that can stand in its way

 

[Judas Priest]

Never thought i'd say it Damien BUT, spot on.

Westy summed it up nicely when he said it's the bite not the fish that sets the pulse racing.

 

[Rich Frampton]

Never thought i'd say it Damien BUT, spot on.

Westy summed it up nicely when he said it's the bite not the fish that sets the pulse racing.

Never thought I would say it but your last sentence is so true.
Must be the significance of the day....

 

[Bob Hornegold]

Never thought i'd say it Damien BUT, spot on.

Westy summed it up nicely when he said it's the bite not the fish that sets the pulse racing.[/QUOT

-------

Not for me it's not !!

It's the Fight that does it for me, regardless of the Species.

The Trap, the Target Fish, the Target Weight have some importance, but it's the FIGHT that really gets the Blood Running and the Heart Beating.

This thread was hyjacked by the Being there Mob, I still don't think they get it ?

The thread was about the Changing Marker Weight on some rivers because of the decline of the fisheries ( Adams Mill ).

We are all out there, doing our own thing, but some seem to think everyone should see it by their own standards.

I have caught a lot of Big Fish in my time and I enjoyed every minute of it, I also love Stick Float Fishing for bits, the rivers I fish are the same, the surroundings are the same.

Much of my fishing is done on a £2.00 a day- Day Ticket venue, some on here seem think we all fish Private Waters or Syndicates.

It really does not matter, if some chase Targets and some do not, as long as you leave the Venue as you found it and treat the inhabitants with respect ?

Bob

 

[cg74]

I'm not saying the "just being there" mindset is wrong, its just that I can't understand it. I can/do go fishing, blank and still have enjoyed myself.
Its possible that the blanks increase my enjoyment when things go to plan?

But I don't think I could ever go fishing if there wasn't a realistic chance of catching and before I get accused of "catching at all costs" That ain't me!
Though everytime I do go fishing, both during and after. I constantly mull over how I could've done it better, this even if I do catch. But should I blank then the analysis is a complete grilling; swim selection, bait choice, method used, was my casting upto scratch; I strive for answers, I must have answers!!
This has always been my way and I like it, as IMO it improves my results.

Regards the original question posed by Bob, for me a "marker" for a specimen fish would be roughly 2/3 of the weight potential offered by a fishery.

 

[Rich Frampton]

Never thought i'd say it Damien BUT, spot on.

Westy summed it up nicely when he said it's the bite not the fish that sets the pulse racing.[/QUOT

-------

Not for me it's not !!

It's the Fight that does it for me, regardless of the Species.

The Trap, the Target Fish, the Target Weight have some importance, but it's the FIGHT that really gets the Blood Running and the Heart Beating.

This thread was hyjacked by the Being there Mob, I still don't think they get it ?

The thread was about the Changing Marker Weight on some rivers because of the decline of the fisheries ( Adams Mill ).

We are all out there, doing our own thing, but some seem to think everyone should see it by their own standards.

I have caught a lot of Big Fish in my time and I enjoyed every minute of it, I also love Stick Float Fishing for bits, the rivers I fish are the same, the surroundings are the same.

Much of my fishing is done on a £2.00 a day- Day Ticket venue, some on here seem think we all fish Private Waters or Syndicates.

It really does not matter, if some chase Targets and some do not, as long as you leave the Venue as you found it and treat the inhabitants with respect ?

Bob

Bite...fight...one of the same. The size of the fish isn't the issue.
It's unreal that with every post there needs to be another to explain the previous one.

 

[Judas Priest]

[quote
Bite...fight...one of the same. QUOTE]

They certainly are not.

The bite sets the pulse going as it's the unknown (is it going to develop, is it a barbel ), unless of course you are fishing for the same group of fish as allways and virtually know what you're going to hook.

The fight so often is either over quickly or a total let down as a big fish justs plods around, so no setting my pulse racing.

 

[Damian Kimmins]

It's the Fight that does it for me, regardless of the Species.
The Trap, the Target Fish, the Target Weight have some importance, but it's the FIGHT that really gets the Blood Running and the Heart Beating.
This thread was hyjacked by the Being there Mob, I still don't think they get it ?
The thread was about the Changing Marker Weight on some rivers because of the decline of the fisheries ( Adams Mill ).
We are all out there, doing our own thing, but some seem to think everyone should see it by their own standards.
I have caught a lot of Big Fish in my time and I enjoyed every minute of it, I also love Stick Float Fishing for bits, the rivers I fish are the same, the surroundings are the same.
Much of my fishing is done on a £2.00 a day- Day Ticket venue, some on here seem think we all fish Private Waters or Syndicates.

It really does not matter, if some chase Targets and some do not, as long as you leave the Venue as you found it and treat the inhabitants with respect ?

Bob

I personally believe in there being a value, on top of having, in not having, Bob; in having a contrast. It could mean to, given your luck on the day, catch and not catch barbel, or, like as you, broadening your horizons to fish for other species too.
I tend to fish for barbel or chub because of the surroundings in which I can fish for them. That just means for me that if I don't catch, I can enjoy everything else.

Regards

Damian