Stick float or Waggler for rivers?

[Mark Wintle]

There's some good stuff about Trent waggler fishing in Jim baxter's book 'The Rising Antenna' with details of Johnny Rolfe, Johnny Moult, Dave Thomas and John Dean. Apart from the 1977 Div 3 National when I had some of my fish on the waggler (almost fishing blind as i really did need glasses!) I went for a couple of short breaks in the late 80s and had some success with the waggler, especially one day fishing a big slack at Hazelford when I eventually got the better roach queuing up well out in the main current. Perhaps the best waggler angler I watched on the Trent was Pete Palmer who I saw win the 1977 Gladding Masters (learnt a lot that day watching him, Ivan Marks and Kevin Ashurst) and then again (with Neil M.) doing well in an awkward wind in the 1980 Div 1 somewhere above Gunthorpe Bridge. I didn't watch John Dean on the Trent though did see him on the Warks. Avon in the 81 World Champs. Ivan Marks was always a delight to watch on the waggler and one of the very best with this method.

It was Jan Porter who coveted the Mustad 90240 barbless hooks, renaming the size 22s a size 21 which Mustad picked up on when they relaunched the hooks with odd sizes.

 

[flightliner]

Heady days Neil, I only ever won one Trent match on the waggler way back in the early to mid seventies- a two coach club trip at Muskham in pretty much the same manner as you describe.
It wasn't long afterwards that I gave it up but years later in my carp angling days I was in a pub with a friend who had gone to pay his match fee- learning I was "a carp angler" a few remarks came my way that made me accept a place in the match
that I won with sixteen pounds- a ten plus carp on a 1.7 hooklength made up the bulk of the catch along with some roach and skimmers.
I wish I could say it was a waggler catch but tho I started on it nothing came to it and I reverted to a small groundbait feeder.
The winnings were handy !

 

[flightliner]

That book mark is a must for any angler wanting to understand the waggler.
I had a call from Jim Baxter inviting me to the launch .
It was attended by many of the books contributors who along with the author gladly signed my copy.
I was sad that I missed Roly Moses on the day but John Dean, Dave Thomas, dear old Terry Paine to name a few added their signatures.

 

[bracket]

Pete, you mention Mustad hooks being used by the Notts anglers.
Any substance in the story of a favoured pattern that was discontinued caused a bit of distress , then one enterprising Notts guy found what was thought to be the only ones left in the country and kept them all to himself ?

Flight. I think it is an Urban Myth. What I do know to be true is this: Mustad hooks were very popular around the Notts area and the most used were, a fine wire, long shanked blue hook (Size 16, for caster, can't remember the number I've bought hunderds and tied thousands), a Mustad 515A forged hook for a bit more strength, this would be fished with the barb crimped (crushed) and, most popular of all the Mustad 90340 barbless hook. This hook is the one I think you are refering to and also where Jan gets involved. Jan, through his Nordic connections, discovered that Mustad used four machines to produce the 90340 hook and one of the machines produced a hook with a longer point than the other three. These were the ones we coverted. During manufacture all the hooks were bulked together before packaging and distribution. In those days the hooks were supplied in cardboard boxes of 100 and myself and others would spend hours at Jan's shop and also Terry Dormans shop, sifting through these boxes and picking out the longer point hooks, which were then put "Under the Counter" for selective sale. I think that's the origin of your comment Flight. They were much sort after at the time, I remember fishing a Notts AA Trent match and drew just above Hamms Bridge, one peg below Johnny Moult. When the whistle went for "All Out" I walked up to Johnny to have a craic. He had tackled down and was carefully replacing his hook length (with a 90340) into the paper envelope. I said " You ain't saving that hook are you John?" He look at me astonished and said " I've just took over 20lb of roach on it Pete. You don't throw a hook like that away". Jan was an avid collector of hooks. I know he bought up the entire stock of Shakespeare Model Perfect 5555 hooks, which he got me to tie. I did somehow misplace a few hundred by mistake, which I still have today, somewhere. Pete

 

[flightliner]

Pete, thanks so much for that fascinating account / answer to my query.
So indicative of the lengths that top matchmen go to in order to put more fish in the net.
Here another--
I was a near teenager(10/11 maybe) when the well publicised match took place between the two teams - one using centrepins and the other using fixed spools on the Trent. Jim sharpe was amongst them if I remember?
You were right amongst the mix in Nottingham and must know (perhaps) of some other bits of information that never reached the public thro the angling times who reported the match.
It always fascinated me that match, any extra info??

 

[bracket]

Pete, thanks so much for that fascinating account / answer to my query.
So indicative of the lengths that top matchmen go to in order to put more fish in the net.
Here another--
I was a near teenager(10/11 maybe) when the well publicised match took place between the two teams - one using centrepins and the other using fixed spools on the Trent. Jim sharpe was amongst them if I remember?
You were right amongst the mix in Nottingham and must know (perhaps) of some other bits of information that never reached the public thro the angling times who reported the match.
It always fascinated me that match, any extra info??

Racking my brains on this one Flight. All I can add is that it was a match between a team led by Benny Ashurst, so that would be Leigh Miners and friends, Benny, Kevin and Ken Booth are all I remember. The other team was a combination of Notts Fed and Notts AA (This was before Trentmen was formed) Names that come to mind are, as you say, Jim Sharp, Eric Mantle(Notts AA President) I am sure John Toulson fished and also Pete Brough and Pete Warren and may be Jimmy Meakin. I am also sure Frank Barlow fished too, being brought up on the Trent he must have been able to fish centre pin but all the times I fished with him he only ever used a Mitchell Match. Got a feeling he fished for Benny's team. I reckon the match was fished on the Notts AA stretch at Whitemoor Grove. Benny's team ran out winners on the day, but the deciding factor was not the type of reel being used but the bait. Benny's team, to a man, fished caster whilst the Notts lads fished maggot. Mark Wintle may have something on it in his archives. If he has, I would love to see it. Pete.

 

[flightliner]

Many thanks Pete, much appreciated!!

 

[O.C.F.Disorder]

I love using a loaded waggler in eddies with one tiny shot 8 inches from the hook.

 

[mikench]

Incorporeal hereditaments; now there's a straightforward and easily understood concept!:wh

 

[Molehill]

Good stories, keep them coming - when you return from fishing!

 

[108831]

A waggler is the best way to fish on the drop on rivers,bar none and regular loose feeding is being used,fish will come up competing for grub,especially chub and roach,as for for some direction,a waggler is the best way to stay on your feed line,by correcting your line above the 'kill' zone,then feeding the bow so as not to accelerate the float,it's a method that won me a lot of money in my match fishing days on the Trent,Thames,Upper Gt.ouse etc,it is no different to any other method,it has to be used when it's right and practice makes perfect,I've caught bags of barbel on the Severn,as Mark said,there is no tip in shallow water to spoil fish and it definitely does...

 

[silvers]

top & bottom and waggler floats both have their day .... as do strung out and heavier bulk shotting patterns.
They just offer different presentation options.

My favourite days on the Trent have been setting up 4 float rods ..... 2 top & bottom for the inside line and 2 waggler for further out ...... one of each for on the drop. Feed two lines and then rotate all day to keep the roach coming.

FWIW a true Trent trotter shotting is a little different to the use of a "stumpy" waggler for shallow water - although that is how I use that pattern of float mostly. Billy Lane's rig included both a pendulum length of line below the float and also a large backshot to act as a brake.

Like Whitty I grew up waggler fishing for chub along far bank slacks ...... big bow and Zorro strike! The good news is that the rod is then in the perfect place for the fight (ie. behind you!!)

For close-in on the drop I do prefer a really light cane stick (2 x no.6) for reading the drop.

 

[chrisrd]

Can someone please explain a little more about fishing a waggler "with a big bow" . Thanks!


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[tigger]

You can fish a stick or avon the same way. If i'm thinking silvers means the same as i'm thinking then the bow is merely to stop you from pulling your float off line or pulling it under when fishing across river. Rather than mend your line you allow a bow to build up so it glides down river parrallel to the float as it goes down the river. The further away your float gets the easier it is to mend out some of the bow without disturbing your float.
Maybe Silvers means something else?

 

[silvers]

exactly that - except that fishing in to the far bank slacks means that the bow grows bigger rather than going down parallel.
For chub particularly, the wafting bait below a lightly shotted waggler is enticing .... and mending the line usually means you don't get a bite (in my experience on rivers like the Gt Ouse and Warks Avon)

On other days - a different presentation would be better - but for chub I've found the above is effective most of the time (If I can't get them feeding out in the flow).

 

[tigger]

exactly that - except that fishing in to the far bank slacks means that the bow grows bigger rather than going down parallel.
For chub particularly, the wafting bait below a lightly shotted waggler is enticing .... and mending the line usually means you don't get a bite (in my experience on rivers like the Gt Ouse and Warks Avon)

On other days - a different presentation would be better - but for chub I've found the above is effective most of the time (If I can't get them feeding out in the flow).

Yeah, I get what your saying. Quite a difficult thing to tey and explaine though if someone isn't very experienced with the method.
In several long glides I fish where the killing spot is 60 or more yds down stream and on the opposite bank of a wide'ish river I let the line go with the large bow in it but at some point I have to mend the line as much as poss otherwise there's just too much bow to be able to strike and make contact with the fish. Once it's travelled 40 or more yds downstream the tension on the surface makes it possible to mend enough line without disturbing the float in any way.

 

[silvers]

I agree with all of that - and as Alan said - mend the line before the killing zone.
The pegs on the upper Ouse and Warks Avon are/were much more confined than that. You had the slack in front of you and couldn't get at the one downstream either because of vegetation or it would be the next peg (match angler ... 18 to 20 yard pegs in those days)

One of the great things about float fishing is the variety of presentation that can be achieved - and using the range of them to get more bites. Start with one option and then experiment.

 

[tigger]

I agree with all of that - and as Alan said - mend the line before the killing zone.
The pegs on the upper Ouse and Warks Avon are/were much more confined than that. You had the slack in front of you and couldn't get at the one downstream either because of vegetation or it would be the next peg (match angler ... 18 to 20 yard pegs in those days)

One of the great things about float fishing is the variety of presentation that can be achieved - and using the range of them to get more bites. Start with one option and then experiment.

Wierd as it may sound, i've never ever heard anyone who allows that bow in the line to happen until now!
No one ever told or showed me how to do it! I just stumbled across the technique whilst fishing many years ago. I have tried to explaine it to people but their eyes would glaze over and they obviously thought I was a retard and so I ceased my conversation about it.
On a shorter and narrower stretch of river you'd have no need to mend it really, as you said you just strike out the slack on a sweaping strike. In the circumstances I tried to describe even a huge sweaping back strike wouldn't be able to pick up enough line and so I have to get a bit of line back before the float gets to the killing zone in order to make contact with the fish on the strike. I can think of one swim in particular where this method is the only one you can use unless you can wade right across stream and trott donstream a little more inline with yourself.....or you fish off the other bank Lol. Only snag with the last and obvious option is the banking is quite unfishable due to it's steepness and the trees and undergrowth etc.
I suppose the other option would be a lead, but in this spot the bottom of the river is a mass of boulders and you'd loose you lead on the majority of casts, I know because i've tried.

 

[nottskev]

Another little thing about waggler and bows.... If it's a day when the line has to be allowed to bow, for whatever reason, you have to work out which way to strike to move the float and hook the fish. That might be downstream, upstream or up, depending on where the current(s) and wind are putting your line, or where you're having to leave it to make the float go through ok. On slower rivers in a downstreamer, you might have to sink some or all the line, and that adds to the fun.

 

[chrisrd]

Thanks for the answers, that all makes sense and I look forward to trying it out! I love fishing the float and in recent years have only really focussed on the stick (love it!) so looks like time to dig out the wagglers.


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