Stick float or Waggler for rivers?

[mikench]

Sounds complicated to me but a practical lesson will no doubt explain all!

 

[108831]

As Alex/Silvers says,it's something that once you've done it,you have the required knowledge,I've won matches fishing down the middle of the Trent at Gunthorpe on the waggler with twenty pounds plus of roach,the same tricks apply,feeding said bow before the killing zone,it's not a skill really,but it is a form of knowledge,that is always remembered when needed.

 

[tigger]

As Alex/Silvers says,it's something that once you've done it,you have the required knowledge,I've won matches fishing down the middle of the Trent at Gunthorpe on the waggler with twenty pounds plus of roach,the same tricks apply,feeding said bow before the killing zone,it's not a skill really,but it is a form of knowledge,that is always remembered when needed.

As I said, when using that technique i'm nearly always using a bolo float.....the method works with any float really. I've found a float of 4gm and above works better where I fish.

When I say kill zone , obviously I mean hot spot or taking spot .

 

[108831]

As I said, when using that technique i'm nearly always using a bolo float.....the method works with any float really. I've found a float of 4gm and above works better where I fish.

When I say kill zone , obviously I mean hot spot or taking spot .

I'm struggling a bit to see how the bolo works when feeding a bow,as,as I see it,it's a top and bottom float and the bow will pull the float through quicker than the flow,which in most cases will reduce bites,on the waggler the reason for doing it is to run at the rate of the flow,I'm interested to know your views on it.

 

[tigger]

I'm struggling a bit to see how the bolo works when feeding a bow,as,as I see it,it's a top and bottom float and the bow will pull the float through quicker than the flow,which in most cases will reduce bites,on the waggler the reason for doing it is to run at the rate of the flow,I'm interested to know your views on it.

The bow only pulls a top and bottom float through at the same speed as it would a waggler as far as i've seen. I do try to make sure the bow of line doesn't preceed the float as it travels down stream.
The reason I allow a bow to run down with the float is mainly to prevent a tight line pulling it off course when fishing 30yds across stream. As I said I have to mend the bow as much as possible after a distace so a strike picks up enough line to make it taught enough to make contact with the fish.
It's a method that is pretty much impossible for me to put in writing but it does work in the circumstances that I use it.

 

[108831]

It's not a method I have toyed with and can understand what and why your doing,I think the waggler is a slightly different use of the bow,but we all use our initiative to beat our problems.

 

[tigger]

It's not a method I have toyed with and can understand what and why your doing,I think the waggler is a slightly different use of the bow,but we all use our initiative to beat our problems.

Yeaph, just play around until you get the result your aiming for.....sometimes it works lol.

 

[flightliner]

I always favour a good upstream wind on the lower Trent when fishing the waggler, a north easterly is good too.
Everything just runs downstream in a nice orderly fashion.
No mending line , 'pullted bait laid upstream in the exact spot reqd to give a bite in a not to far downstream spot, if the fish do drop downriver it's. Still likely that they are still in range to pull back up.

 

[Mark Wintle]

I always favour a good upstream wind on the lower Trent when fishing the waggler, a north easterly is good too.
Everything just runs downstream in a nice orderly fashion.
No mending line , 'pullted bait laid upstream in the exact spot reqd to give a bite in a not to far downstream spot, if the fish do drop downriver it's. Still likely that they are still in range to pull back up.

Those perfect winds are hard to find! I learnt my waggler craft on the tidal Frome at Wareham in the days of less boat mooring and the top end (the river has a slow curve to the right going downstream) has long been a downstream wind nightmare with the prevailing SW/W wind funnelling down river, only being an upstreamer if the tide is flowing upstream. The bottom third was much easier but long inaccessible due to boats.

The Thames at Medley was usually easy to fish with the wind off your back hence the likes of Wayne Swinscoe bagging up on stick floats fished down the middle in waggler territory (early 1980s). Further downriver at Clifton Hampden you usually had to contend with a downstreamer hence long wagglers to cut under the skim.

The Bristol Avon is mostly upstreamers hence the Topper to use the bulk weight to pull the float against the surface skim, ditto the Warks. Avon at Evesham. The only time an upstreamer can be hard work is on big rivers when you get those big rollers coming up river.

Burton Joyce (Trent) was notorious for downstreamers and not always easy to fish well out hence the very high standard of the float anglers who mastered it back in its heyday.

Someone mentioned Trent Trotters; the pendulum shotting will result in a broken line if used with modern tin shot and it's alleged that the dragging back shot version cannot actually be made to work, and was a diagram known to be a fake at the time. It looks like it ought to work but in practice may not do so.

In my loft I do have an Angling Times of one of the 'pin v. stick float battles circa 1964 but it's hard to find in the many boxes up there; not sure it has details of all the teams. There was more than one such match.

 

[silvers]

Mark,

here's where I fess up that I've never fished the Trent Trotter with a backshot as Billy described in his encyclopedia ...
In concept, why would it be any different to dragging overdepth with an undershotted waggler?

or perhaps it's more like backshotting a stick float .... a point to pay line to rather than the float?

There's not many river match pegs these days that would justify the approach as written by Billy. Having said that - I'm now minded to go out and try it. Most of the shallow pegs are choked with weed these days - which would make it rather more tricky!

 

[Mark Wintle]

Dragging a shot that's below the float [to slow the float down] will work with a Trent trotter and a back shot will help cut the line under the surface but the back shot won't be in the right place to slow the float down as well. It's possible to use very thick and very short (3") peacock quill wagglers instead of the traditional Trent trotter and slow it down by undershotting it and holding back very slightly, similar to the technique described by Ivan Marks in his original match fishing book for waggler fishing but now you're talking mega advanced class!

 

[dicky123]

I really have a lot of questions to you Mark, and the others please?

It sound like you more likely to find water ideal for the waggler, rather than the stick. It also sounds you could fish the waggler 99% of the time, but the stick float a lot less, would I be right?

I'm maybe struggling because I always favour the stick, even when I know the conditions would be better for a waggler. Dave Harrell told me recently, he favoured a big waggler mostly, and had some great bags of fish on them.

If when arriving at a swim say 8-10 deep quick glide clear and you were after all sorts, WOULD IT MATTER if you used a waggler or stick in all honesty, unless you wanted to fish beyond two rod length from the bank? If it would explain please?

Then maybe I'll understand what I'm doing wrong on the Trent?

Thanks Rich.

 

[108831]

Rich,it would matter,but it is unlikely you would know which to opt for by looking at the water,the fish would prefer the presentation of one or the other,these days I often fish loafer/Avon type floats on the pin,that is in spite of catching most of my fish on these venues on the waggler in days of yore,you know why,cos I like doing it,senility you know...

 

[Mark Wintle]

I really have a lot of questions to you Mark, and the others please?

It sound like you more likely to find water ideal for the waggler, rather than the stick. It also sounds you could fish the waggler 99% of the time, but the stick float a lot less, would I be right? No not really. The rivers I fish vary enormously in flow as in winter it's usually top and bottom floats as the flow is much greater.

I'm maybe struggling because I always favour the stick, even when I know the conditions would be better for a waggler. Dave Harrell told me recently, he favoured a big waggler mostly, and had some great bags of fish on them. Dave Harrell fishes at range a lot of the time on rivers like the Severn and has vast experience of waggler fishing; he knows when to use top and bottom floats and when to use wagglers, and it's having the knowledge to recognise when to switch that comes with trial and error ie experience. You have to be prepared to get it wrong plenty of time, that way you improves.

If when arriving at a swim say 8-10 deep quick glide clear and you were after all sorts, WOULD IT MATTER if you used a waggler or stick in all honesty, unless you wanted to fish beyond two rod length from the bank? If it would explain please? It would matter a great deal but if i was starting to learn the waggler a fast deep swim is not the sort I would choose. From memory on the Trent I found those swims that were very slow close in with more flow further out ideal for learning the waggler, one example being immediately above Gunthorpe Bridge.

Then maybe I'll understand what I'm doing wrong on the Trent? Not sure you're doing anything wrong as such but adding waggler fishing skills to what you have adds a new dimension to your fishing which can be transferred elsewhere. I enjoy waggler fishing as I find it easy but that's partly down to 40 years of practice.

Thanks Rich.

I hope my comments help.

 

[Molehill]

I've just returned from a few days on the Severn above Shrewsbury (from Tuesday) to find this thread has moved on a pace, so here are my initial observations as a complete novice to river waggler fishing.

Tuesday evening about 9pm I found a swim I thought suitable and put on a loaded peacock waggler, within minutes I could appreciate the differences from the stick float, casting, control of drift and bites seemed in slow motion. Then I lost the float, then I put on a crystal waggler, then the crystal sprung a leak and sank.........then I packed up at 10pm as I could see sod all!

No opportunity to experiment, but I realised I was in a completely new ball game from stick float with loads to learn. Of course, as with anything new it is easy to think the new emperor is the dogs doodahs and ignore the alternative, the skill must me in recognising which to use when and then how to use it

Next couple of days I had more opportunities, but the howling wind drove me demented ( Centrepin and stick float almost had me in tears), and little bits and bobs fell into place, but 2 days experience against 30 years leaves a lot to learn.

Anyway, thanks to all those who have replied to my initial question, I've tried it and started to see the light, so much to learn and so little time to learn it. But after near 60 years fishing I have something new to engage my brain and a skill to learn, far preferable to simply buying new rigs and tackle and expecting to conquer the world.