....Prove it.
Do Fish Feel Pain?
- Thread starter FishingMagic
- Start date
....Prove it.
sam vimes
Well-known member
I've just asked my goldfish (that I don't really have) if it feels pain, it said nowt, so I'll take that as a no.
I'm sure that those that wish to think otherwise will take the silence as a yes.
And that's the exact same problem that the genuine scientific studies are having. Injecting substances to provoke a response sounds very dubious to me. Surely if they wished to prove a pain response then just the needle going in would be enough, no need for the bee venom. I'm sure that demonstrates admirably that fish will respond to stimuli. Whether it proves that fish feel pain is still quite different.
Funny as I recently stuck a treble hook in a goldfish (that I dont really hhave either) as livebait and its fins went erect, it flapped uncontrolably and then crapped itself...I took that to mean it did not really "like" what i was doing...
---------- Post added at 10:39 ---------- Previous post was at 10:38 ----------
Doesnt that comment work both ways ? ...why do you keep directing it at me ? ...why not just say that as a general comment to everyone ...
Here is the thing. Allot of my friends are not anglers...I had the exact same debate with a group of them and belive me it got allot worse than this.
To cut a long story short ...there is NO WAY they where EVER going to accept the argument that fish dont feel pain. After a very long winded debate the only angle that was acceptable (to any degree) to them was that without me (as in anglers) fish would be worse off.
Sure they complained it was for totally selfish reasons that anglers did things such as stock fish and clean up waterways and so on but they «*accepted*» that without anglers it was unlikly anyone else was going to do much for fish...they certainly accepted they themselves would not do as much.
If you think I am giving you a rough time over this or if you dont believe me try having that debate yourselves with a group of animal friendly non anglers and see where the «*fish dont feel pain*» argument gets you.
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sam vimes
Well-known member
Really, but you did it anyway. How strange.
However, it still does not prove that pain exists in fish. Just like we can't prove that fish don't feel pain.
Response to a stimuli does not necessarily equate to pain.
A human can be injected with a drug that will cause no pain whatsoever, beyond the injection itself. The drug can, without any pain whatsoever, cause any number of different responses, up to and including death, without any sign of pain whatsoever.
Jeff Woodhouse
Moaning Marlow Meldrew
Classic, Fred, classic.
Crabs, prawns, lobsters are all boiled to kill them, there's no other practical way, but do they feel the pain of scalding water? On this one I don't know, it would certainly be an environment they weren't happy to be in being a 100 degrees or more than they're used to. Some people say they scream, but crab fishermen have told me it's just teh expulsion of air and gases from their systems coming through tiny outlets. Interesting one that though.
Now to read the next page ....
sam vimes
Well-known member
Go back a few hundred years and you'd never be able to make the majority of the population believe that the earth wasn't flat.
You may well be right that the majority will never believe that fish don't feel pain. That doesn't make them right and it isn't a cogent argument for everyone else having to accept that fish do feel pain.
Yep...because I have my justification which does not involve trying to pretend to myself fish dont care about what I am doing to them.
Whats your justification ? ...you already said you think they feel something..so what is it ? ...that they dont feel enough ... so therefore its ok ?
Jeff Woodhouse
Moaning Marlow Meldrew
Perhaps it just didn't like you. On the other hand you may have gone through a muscle or nerve that controlled the dorsal fin or some receptor nerve from its lateral line. I won't condemn it, but I don't generally use livebaits based on no other reason than for reasonable hooking properties you have to go through soft muscle tissue or nerves close to the lateral line and that could cause some stress or distress (careful about using those - NOT in a human manner) in the bait.Philip (via sam vimes) said:
I have used minnows lip hooked to catch perch and very effective it is too, but I don't see any unnatural behaviour in the minnow when it is returned to the water unless it feels the tension of the line/weight/float pulling against the hook. However, strangely this behaviour is something I do want to see as it shows panic reaction in the minnow that attracts the perch.
Oh and one other thing about perch, their kidneys are just at the back and behind the mouth. Now that could be a highly sensitive area, burst them (sight of blood coming through the gills) and the fish will in all probability die.
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Maybe your right...but they will be the ones who ultimatly will decide for YOU wheter you have the right to go fishing or not.
---------- Post added at 11:15 ---------- Previous post was at 11:14 ----------
INTERESTING INDEED. hope everyone is noting this.
chav professor
Well-known member
I admire anyone for at least trying to search out and at least try and find out for themselves.... But philip, you have surpassed yourself.... You have proved only one thing mg:
Oh, and by the way - you must have put a very strong argument to your non-angling friends.... Done us all proud no doubt. I suspect those compelled to indifference were at least swayed by your 'fish sh!tting them selves analogy..... Powerful stuff...lol
mg:Oh, and by the way - you must have put a very strong argument to your non-angling friends.... Done us all proud no doubt. I suspect those compelled to indifference were at least swayed by your 'fish sh!tting them selves analogy..... Powerful stuff...lol
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sam vimes
Well-known member
No. When I say that they "feel" something I mean that they will respond to stimuli. I don't believe that they feel pain. Can I prove it? No. However, if I did believe that they could feel pain, I wouldn't sticking dirty great hooks in them.
As I've said before. That isn't meant to be judgemental of your stance. I may not understand it, but I don't care how you justify what you do. Equally, I couldn't give a damn what you think of my stance. I certainly don't feel any need to justify myself to you or anyone else. Provided people stay within the law, such stances are an entirely personal thing. The only justifying that needs to be done is to yourself.
---------- Post added at 11:38 ---------- Previous post was at 11:28 ----------
Fortunately, they are not going to get to decide that until the scientists get into a neat little row behind proof that fish do feel pain.
It's one of the more positive aspects of an imperfect democracy that the majority often do not get their way.
chav professor
Well-known member
Jeff Woodhouse
Moaning Marlow Meldrew
10 years ago I had a major operation and was consulted beforehand as to what type of anaesthetic I would like. I didn't know I had a choice, but it was either a full knockout or an epidural and I would remain awake, that scared the pants off me (had I been wearing any). I elected, under advisement, for the epidural that when it was administered felt no worst than a lady of the night scratching my back with one of her finger nails (don't ask me how I can compare this, please). I suppose having my head buried in between this lovely young female nurse's boobs (it's the position they put you in - lovely!!!) distracted me from some of the pain of the injection.
After that they laid me out on the gurney and the anaesthetist kept checking on my progress with freezing cold water on my legs, when I could no longer feel it he said they could proceed. Whilst in the theatre and before they started, I felt a nurse press against my foot and said "Hey, I felt that, don't start yet!" The anaesthetist said I would feel pressure such as that, even (and he tried) him wiggling my toes felt strange. However, the operation started and I didn't feel a thing, but after 15 minutes or so laid in that position I simply fell asleep. It was 12 hours later before I could properly feel my legs again.
That's modern anaesthesia and as I have said before on here, somewhere in between that and full pain is perhaps where fish stand. I will add - in their mouths at least!
After that they laid me out on the gurney and the anaesthetist kept checking on my progress with freezing cold water on my legs, when I could no longer feel it he said they could proceed. Whilst in the theatre and before they started, I felt a nurse press against my foot and said "Hey, I felt that, don't start yet!" The anaesthetist said I would feel pressure such as that, even (and he tried) him wiggling my toes felt strange. However, the operation started and I didn't feel a thing, but after 15 minutes or so laid in that position I simply fell asleep. It was 12 hours later before I could properly feel my legs again.
That's modern anaesthesia and as I have said before on here, somewhere in between that and full pain is perhaps where fish stand. I will add - in their mouths at least!
I personaly don't have to.
Sufficient evidence exists to tell us, fish don't feel pain!
Others would say sufficient evidence exists to tell us they do.
Niether of us can win this one.
I suspect the majority of human beings however would say they do.
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Jeff Woodhouse
Moaning Marlow Meldrew
This thread and it's main protestor is reminding me of Jake Thakery
[ame=http://youtu.be/Wmwyp38VwMQ]Jake Thackray - On again, on again - YouTube[/ame]
[ame=http://youtu.be/Wmwyp38VwMQ]Jake Thackray - On again, on again - YouTube[/ame]
Oh yes Prof;
I'm well aware of the loud shouter approach which is why I've always stood my ground on certain subjects.
Just because there are some who shout loud and keep on singing from the same hymn sheet they're preaching mustn't be allowed to become the fact.
But, there comes a point when all that's being done is that the Trolls are being fed, because they have the defenders hooked.(painlessly I may add. But, eventually put on ignore. It works by the way
)You are not giving me a tough time as you put it you are giving yourself a tough time like I said earlier if you cannot prove your point do not waste you time discussing it. Seems to me your friends are the ones who give you a tough time. Your friends would not accept any arguement other than their own anyway. You are making a rod for your own Back and doing angling no favours at the same time.
Really ? ...so could you do me a favor and show Mr Woodhouse how it works as he has managed to cram reference to me into literally every post he has made SINCE he started to apparently ignore me.
Honestly ...please do it ...no prob for me WHATSOEVER !
---------- Post added at 12:18 ---------- Previous post was at 12:14 ----------
Ah well you see, thats where we do have to disagree. I know you will never see it like me but I think what I suggest offers Anglers a way to justify what they do once and for all.
Yes I know....I have it all wrong etc etc etc ...but the "fish dont feel pain" argument is self defeating...it prob wont be for a very long time (I hope) but it will fall down round us in the end.