Martin Gay's Historic Carp Captures - THIS is 'Overwhelming Evidence'...

[bennygesserit]

Re: Martin Gay's Historic Carp Captures - THIS is 'Overwhelming Evidence'...

Eddie have you told Cliff where the water is ?

 

[Ray Daywalker Clarke]

Re: Martin Gay's Historic Carp Captures - THIS is 'Overwhelming Evidence'...

Eddie have you told Cliff where the water is ?

Benny,

It makes me laugh that Eddie thinks he knows, and Cliff doesn't. Yet according to Cliff they were both very very good friends of Martins.

If Eddie has told Cliff, then hasn't he broken Martins trust ???

So i think your answer will be, NO, or maybe, or I'm not sure, or, i can't remember it was 25 years ago.

 

[Philip]

Re: Martin Gay's Historic Carp Captures - THIS is 'Overwhelming Evidence'...

Hi Philip..........You are quite correct I did say that I believe that I know where the water is. However, you appear to have overlooked my blog number 721 dated 20.12.2015 part of which follows.

Finally, Crow, you finish by saying that there is a post on this thread that needs some consideration....'that Eddie has NO IDEA where this secret venue might be situated'.

Well NOW I do have some idea where.

Hi Eddie, perhaps you can therefore explain what changed or what additional evidence came to light between the 21st October when you told me you did not know where the water was and the 20th December when you told Crow you believed you knew were the water was ?

Terry Brady, the Environmental Advisor stated "I can't imagine that kayaks have ever been leaning against our fence at the outfall channel. In the 18 years I've been working here I have never seen anyone kayaking here. The water is just too big, and usually rough. I see the lake all day because my office overlooks it".
Still, what would he know, he's only worked there for 18 years.

Eddie you appear to now be doing this on purpose. Your attempting yet again to bring the discussion back to Lennox power and thus PS & the CS. I told you Eddie..Lake Onatrio is over 19000 km2 Martin Gay could have caught his Carp anywhere on that lake, or Canada or indeed anywhere on planet earth. You are insulting peoples intelligence and attempting to MANIPULATE THIS DISCUSSION AND MISLEAD PEOPLE for your ulterior motives.

As you appear to be INTENTIONALLY difficult about it Eddie ….I called Terry Brady at Ontario power myself. You can verify this with Terry directly if you wish.


What a lovely Fella Terry is…a fisherman too who appeared to be well up to date with the whole story. We spoke at some length about the whole saga. Terry told me that although Kayaks would not be in the areas by the power station there is a sailing club approx. 5 miles from them.


Quote Eddie Benham …In view of the fact that I, Mac and Cliff, could not identify the objects, then I would say that Kayaks could not be ruled out, but it could have been canoes, sailing boats, surf boards, tree logs, timber of some kind, building material for a wooden hut, anything really.


Terry also said he would not be surprised if Kayaking and Canoeing was happening elsewhere on Lake Ontario as it was such a big place. Indeed a simple google search that anyone can do shows multiple sailing and Kayak clubs operating on Lake Ontario…here are just a few …

1)BALMY BEACH CANOE CLUB - Home 360 Lake Front, Toronto, ON M4E 1A7, Canada
2)mississaugacanoeclub.ca 31 Front St N, Mississauga, ON L5H 2E1, Canada
3)Toronto Island Canoe Club - Cibola Ave, Toronto, ON, Canada
4)burloakcanoe.com 160 Water St, Oakville, ON L6J 2Z6, Canada
5)cataraquicanoe.on.ca Cataraqui St, Kingston, ON, Canada
6)ahoyrentals.com 23 Ontario St, Kingston, ON K7L 2Y2, Canada

(…Did you notice the one near Kingston Eddie …nice grey chain link fence with a cream colored sign too……:wh)


I also took the opportunity to chat to Terry about the Carp fishing on Lake Ontario. As I guess most of us know Carp are considered a trash fish over there so not many people fish for them but Terry confirmed there are allot present and although he not does fish for them he personally has seen fish he would estimate up to 30lbs in the immediate area…so goodness knows how big they might go in the other 19000 square Kilometers !

Indeed being a keen angler Terry seemed very enthusiastic to even start having a go for the Carp himself …not surprising considering the Carp fishing oasis on his doorstep! ….I of course offered to pass on any hints and tips should he need. I also invited Terry to come on the forum if he wishes and join the debate.

 

[eddiebenham]

Re: Martin Gay's Historic Carp Captures - THIS is 'Overwhelming Evidence'...

Cliff Hatton
To Paul Selman: as I've said repeatedly just recently, if Martin was staying under the same roof as his relatives for two and a half weeks and had been witnessed returning home 'white and visibly shaking' after seeing some big fish, JamesN should be able to report that Martin's nephew, Nate, ALSO saw his uncle come home beaming with joy after catching some of those big fish: you can't have one without the other.

POPPYCOCK HATTON!

This is what his family said to James N: My neighbour (Nate) told me that he remembered his uncle walking into the house after the walk and he was white and visibly shaken stating he had just seen lots and lots of massive carp, nothing like he had ever seen before. He immediately went to the local hardware store and bought some tackle and went fishing for them. He spent the rest of the holiday there and caught lots of big fish.

As usual, you read what you want to read Cliff/or is it Nobby?

This is my last post here on this subject. It is a complete waste of time trying to correct a fake distortion of carp fishing history led by two bigoted individuals who have introduced no new real evidence whatsoever.

The only historic aspect of Martin's Gays catch is that it was the first time a known angler tried to hoodwink the angling public via the angling press into believing a catch from abroad had been achieved in the UK.

Hi Paul

You recently told us that you were General Secretary of the Carp Society and that the Steering Committee consisted of Les Bamford, Vic Cranfield, Tim Paisley, Chris Ball, Dennis Johncock, Mike Kavanagh, Tony Keoghane, Paul Willis, Alan Atkins, and yourself .

In June 2013 you stated “It is a fact that when Martin caught those fish he was on holiday in British Colombia, Canada. It is my understanding that the part of the picture blocked out did indeed show a Canadian mountain landscape. These conclusions were also accepted a fact by the Carp Society leadership of the time and his claims were not accepted by us”

Now there are many well known and respected names up there, but none of them are among the 13 who saw the photos. You have also told readers that neither Robin Monday or Martin Gay attended the said Meeting, so who was it that informed these highly respected and eminent gentlemen present at the Meeting that there was a Canadian mountain landscape. Who was it that stated these were facts ?
On your post #352688 on FW you stated.
“We were extremely thorough all those years ago when Martin Gay made the claim 'The Day I Broke **** Walker's Record' with this Canadian fish”.
Paul, that does not appear to be the case, as you have now blogged on FW;
“The fish were caught from a warm water outlet from Lennox Power Station on Lake Ontario, Canada, bits of the power station are missed off the picture so as not to reveal the location”
So much then for being extremely thorough.
Also, Paul, I wonder if you have advised these gentlemen that they were apparently, shall we say, mis-led, all those years ago, as it would appear that you have overturned the overwhelming evidence put to those gentlemen and decided yourself that it should have been Lake Ontario on the other side of Canada and not British Colombia as they were led to believe.
Do any of them know of your turn-around ? Are they even aware of my articles which might help them to review the decision they made 26 years ago.
You have also provided us with statements from Chris Ball, Derek Stritton, and Kevin Clifford, again all highly respected Anglers. I have no wish to disrespect them in any way but having looked at what they had to say there does not seem to be one shred of evidence, let alone proof that Martin caught his fish in Canada.
Chris Ball (in referring to the photos, which he never saw) stated “ The background was more than likely mountains”. He appears to be unaware that you decided it was a Warm water outlet. As for his comparison of Martin with that of George Michael, how disgusting was that.
Kevin Clifford says “my gut feeling was what Derek has outlined” another man who did not see any photos.
Derek Stritton who states that he has “a hand written letter from Martin denying the fish were Canadian” continues with “Sad therefore, as I am to say, I believe they were caught there”. Again he never saw any photos.
Have these three gentleman, or even one of them, been made aware of my articles, the fresh information, the continuing debate ?
I feel sure there are readers out there that would also like to know.

Eddie

 

[bennygesserit]

Re: Martin Gay's Historic Carp Captures - THIS is 'Overwhelming Evidence'...

Eddie I asked a similar question because I had the same reservations about the post of FW Paul answered and stated that the people concerned had spoken directly to Martin and had been told the fish was Canadian.
My concern was there were no quotes of those guys stating they had direct contact

 

[Nobby C (ACA)]

Re: Martin Gay's Historic Carp Captures - THIS is 'Overwhelming Evidence'...

Why don't the pedants and non believers get over the fact that despite the lack of irrefutable, concrete evidence the balance of information indicates the fish were indeed caught in the UK. Is this the high court all of a sudden?
Here's a concept, why don't Philip, Paul1, Ray et al provide proof,concrete evidence etc that these captures were made overseas? If you're so sure then put up your information instead of smearing two more posters on this subject.
Selman, here's a friendly tip, when in a hole stop digging. You've embarrassed yourself with your about face contradictions and need to sit back and reflect on your input here.
Or should I just write "censored off' as is permitted on FW forum?

 

[bennygesserit]

Re: Martin Gay's Historic Carp Captures - THIS is 'Overwhelming Evidence'...

It's open to debate that's why there ar so many threads about it

 

[dorsetandchub]

Re: Martin Gay's Historic Carp Captures - THIS is 'Overwhelming Evidence'...

Because the balance of proof is on the person making the claim to prove the circumstances and because, especially in a situation as murky as this, probability is not enough.

All and any reasonable doubt must be overcome for history to be rewritten.

Ray was a record holder and had to prove his catch beyond all doubts. Why should the rules be any different for MG?

Why should someone who thumbed his nose at catch recording and reporting be rewarded for doing so?

We either have accepted standards or complete anarchy. Which do you want?

 

[Nobby C (ACA)]

Re: Martin Gay's Historic Carp Captures - THIS is 'Overwhelming Evidence'...

MG didn't wish to claim a record but, rather to cock a snook at the carp establishment IMO. Sure, it may have been all bluff but from what I understand he caught a UK beast and because he held little regard for the self appointed grandees of UK carp fishing deliberately muddied the waters. Why is it so difficult to accept that as an option?
Angling illegally? Possibly.
I've read so much contradictory rubbish from the anti camp that the balance of probabilities indicates straw grasping,presumably just an extension of the same hubris the CS displayed in the first place. What's with all this forensic attitude, innocent until proven guilty. If anyone did name the water would that be the end of it or would someone require DNA evidence and multiple witnesses?

 

[Philip]

Re: Martin Gay's Historic Carp Captures - THIS is 'Overwhelming Evidence'...

Why don't the pedants and non believers get over the fact that despite the lack of irrefutable, concrete evidence the balance of information indicates the fish were indeed caught in the UK. Is this the high court all of a sudden?
Here's a concept, why don't Philip, Paul1, Ray et al provide proof,concrete evidence etc that these captures were made overseas? If you're so sure then put up your information instead of smearing two more posters on this subject.
Selman, here's a friendly tip, when in a hole stop digging. You've embarrassed yourself with your about face contradictions and need to sit back and reflect on your input here.
Or should I just write "censored off' as is permitted on FW forum?

Correction. I am not a non beliver or a pedant.

Show me anywhere on this web site where I have said I think the fish were caught in Canada.

My sole goal is to determine where the fish was caught …be that the UK, Canada or anywhere else on planet earth. The only thing that may conclusively prove this are the unedited photos which may still exist.

Therefore anything to do with the unedited photos contents or whereabouts is of extreme interest to me. Anything to do with power stations, chimney, meeting minutes, weather patterns, prize rods in aircraft holds, mind numbingly ridiculous Geology claims and whatever other pointless red herrings get thrown in …do not.

---------- Post added at 21:34 ---------- Previous post was at 21:33 ----------

Here's a concept, why don't Philip, Paul1, Ray et al provide proof,concrete evidence etc that these captures were made overseas?

Help me get the unedited photos and I might be able to do that.

 

[dorsetandchub]

Re: Martin Gay's Historic Carp Captures - THIS is 'Overwhelming Evidence'...

Agreed but the straw grasping is a two horse race, equally applicable to both sides.

MG behaved very badly but nobody on the pro will accept that. To my mind, it would actually improve their case if they did because not to do so starts a cover up. I appreciate he's friends with people but the greatest service a friend can give is to be completely honest.

I think it's probable the fish are British but probable simply isn't sufficient proof given the shenanigans at play here.

This whole thing has descended into an anti Paul Selman rant. Even if Canada were discredited completely, that does not confirm the British case.

The pro camp have actually admitted they cannot prove the British case, not to any degree of confirmation anyway.

To my mind, they seek to relax long held rules out of friendship. Sorry but it's just not the done thing.

Nobby, I'm NOT anti the British case or anti MG, I'm merely asking for the relevant, verifiable evidence that any catch on this scale should be judged upon.

If someone catches a 50lb carp and then alters the weight to make it "more believable" alarm bells are ringing for me. There's a lot of dodgy behaviour been displayed and very little of it acknowledged by people who should be reporting cold, hard facts NOT a PR puff for friends.

 

[Nobby C (ACA)]

Re: Martin Gay's Historic Carp Captures - THIS is 'Overwhelming Evidence'...

You might as well ask for pictures of the tooth fairy. I believe as much 'evidence' available has been put down. If the anti camp is determined to uphold their stance what good will come of this? It's not a court of law, close friends have stated their case, either accept it or not. Demanding a forum public enquiry is pointless.
As for PS, he's discredited himself with his volte face and constant name dropping. Let's those he speaks about respond themselves.

IMO Martin didn't behave badly, he just wound the self styled elite up. Good on him.
And I believe these were UK fish. Sue me.

 

[Philip]

Re: Martin Gay's Historic Carp Captures - THIS is 'Overwhelming Evidence'...

Philip: Eddie cannot be expected to remember precisely what was what said about the photos' fate; he only knows they have been 'disposed of' and that we ain't gonna see them again unless a serendipitous finger points us in the right direction. This is not likely, and to hang your hopes on them turning up is unrealistic. Please accept that they're gone.

Mr Hatton, we are trapped in a viscous circle that you are creating. You have now simply substituted the words “disposed of” for “gone” and then telling me to basically shut up and butt out , but have still not answered the underlying question.... What EXACTLY does “gone” mean Mr Hatton ?

-Gone in a shredder never to be seen again ?
-Gone into a locked shoe box in Mrs Gays attic ?
-Gone into someone else’s possession as Mrs Gay was so sick of being asked about them & the Carp she wanted rid of them ?

Do you see my problem Mr Hatton ? “gone” is so vague it can mean anything.
Lets make this simpler :- do YOU Mr Hatton have any idea were the unedited photos are now ? ..Not Eddie…YOU.

Please also accept that neither Eddie nor myself can confirm canoes or kayaks in the pic's.

I am not asking you or Eddie to confirm 100% what the objects stacked up in the background were. I am asking for your best guess. You ALREADY SAID YOU THOUGHT THEY COULD BE CANOES ON ANOTHER WEBSITE…so whats changed Mr Hatton ? What else could they be ? ….a best guess Mr Hatton…is that really asking too much ?

Your posts continue to add nothing of any interest or significance to this debate and this has been the case for a very long time now. Please can you reply with some kind of assurance that your future posts will focus on something different - something interesting, significant, pertinent, fresh....something less repetitive? Thank you, Philip.

I disagree, as it appears do others. To the contrary I find your posts about the CS & PS pointless, boring & repetitive, more importantly so it appears do the majority of your readership who could not care less about your personal feud with PS and are more interested in were the Carp was caught.

Bottom line :- My posts are more on topic than yours , so sort yours out first then complain about mine.

---------- Post added at 22:42 ---------- Previous post was at 22:31 ----------

You might as well ask for pictures of the tooth fairy

Whys that Nobby ?

The tooth fairy is a mythical non existent figure.
The unedited Photos of Martins Gays Carp are real and very much existed and as far as we are concerned may well STILL exist….unless of course you have any evidence or proof to show they no longer Exist Nobby ?

What makes you so utterly certain they wont show up Nobby ?

 

[Nobby C (ACA)]

Re: Martin Gay's Historic Carp Captures - THIS is 'Overwhelming Evidence'...

Because they're not present and, are extremely unlikely to appear for reasons oft stated. That's how it is. Get over it. What exactly are you trying to prove? Re-correction, you are pedantic. Sorry.

 

[Philip]

Re: Martin Gay's Historic Carp Captures - THIS is 'Overwhelming Evidence'...

4) Eddie in the interests of trying to move this on…one thing you mention that interests me greatly is this…

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiebenham
Anyway, I did manage to track down some other unedited photos, which are nothing like the edited ones, for you to look at didn't I. Try stacking kayaks, canoes or anything else for that matter behind that fence.
Forgive me but its my Spanish inquisition need for details again.... I am confused….which photos are you now talking about ? ….you mention the fence as well ….are you saying that you have some photos of the actual chain link fence that was in the unedited photos ? ….perhaps not with Martin or the Carp or the Kayaks or anything else….But do you have some photos of the actual chain link fence that was in the unedited photos ?

Please give a clear answer to this point if you can. Thanks.

Hi Eddie...you didnt anwser this.

 

[sumtime]

Re: Martin Gay's Historic Carp Captures - THIS is 'Overwhelming Evidence'...

The tooth fairy is a mythical non existent figure...........

I hope my g/daughter isn't reading this.

 

[Philip]

Re: Martin Gay's Historic Carp Captures - THIS is 'Overwhelming Evidence'...

Because they're not present and, are extremely unlikely to appear for reasons oft stated. That's how it is. Get over it. What exactly are you trying to prove? Re-correction, you are pedantic. Sorry.

"extreamly unlikly to appear"

That will do me ! ....& quite a step forward from "burnt and never to be seen again" that we were being told 500 posts back !

Pendantic ? ...perhaps...but I'd rather be that than blinkered and easily led. ...now that was you that dismissed the entire country of Canada on Geological grounds based on a photo of a 3 foot square bit of non descript dirt wasnt it ?


....try and be nice & stop the name calling Nobby...it aint difficult mate.

---------- Post added at 22:58 ---------- Previous post was at 22:55 ----------

I hope my g/daughter isn't reading this.

Sorry...I meant the Tooth fairy is of course alive and kicking ...and if we are very lucky will lead us to a nice big box of photos...

 

[Graham Elliott 1]

Re: Martin Gay's Historic Carp Captures - THIS is 'Overwhelming Evidence'...

The fact that so many people have said MG wanted to cock a snook ( or similar) at the CS makes me feel he would have gone to any length to make that possible.

How better than to inflate a weight to a "special" amount. It makes no sense he would purposely under declare it initially. It makes more sense if it weighed 48lb.

 

[no-one in particular]

Re: Martin Gay's Historic Carp Captures - THIS is 'Overwhelming Evidence'...

Bit surprised by whats going on here, I googled kayaking on Lake Ontario and there are many instances of it on the lake and there are also many pontoons with sailing boats, fishing charters boats etc. There are also several pictures of big carp captures and the lake is really massive.

Also came across a selection of this:-

The lake's main fish species include chinook salmon, coho salmon, rainbow trout, brown trout, lake trout, northern pike, smallmouth bass, largemouth bass, walleye and “carp”.

Fishing can be fast and furious with endless numbers of fish in the high teens and upper twenties. Fish in the 30 pound range are fairly common, but fish in the 40 and 50 pound range are captured as well.

With countless KM's of shoreline, creeks, rivers, numerous ports, parks and trails along this stretch of Lake Ontario, there are too many choices to list.

Nearly all ports, marinas, parks, piers and river mouths along this strech offer vast choices of bank access for carp anglers. Carp fishing in Ontario owes it's roots to the anglers that have plyed these waters in search of a trophy fish.

If you live in any of the citys and communites along this stretch, you have more than likely seen more than a few people fishing for carp.Lake Ontario is clearly home to tens of thousands of carp. All there for your taking. Get out and explore.

Bay of Quinte - Lake Ontario

Approximatly 2 hours east of Toronto Quinte is a long, thin bay shaped like the letter "Z" on the northern shore of Lake Ontario. There are several sub-bays off the Bay of Quinte, including Hay Bay, Big Bay, and Muscote Bay. These back waters are ideal for carp fishing especially during the spring and early summer. There are numerous resorts and vacation spots that are begging to be explored by the avid carp angler. Again, as with most of our top 10, there is the potential for some truely large carp in the Bay of Quinte.

Whats going on with this thread? sorry but i'm beginning to be inclined not to believe any of it as the best option.

 

[Graham Elliott 1]

Re: Martin Gay's Historic Carp Captures - THIS is 'Overwhelming Evidence'...

Mark.
A very interesting piece of detective work. Made me inclined to think.



Canada.

Seems like we have been fed some misinformation earlier..