Barbel Fishing – Attacking the Swim

[Titus]

Dave,

In your original article you say,

"In reality the rig is a bolt rig but the 3 inch loop is vital because if the feeder does become trapped in a snag and doesn’t move when the fish swims away, I still get some indication on the rod tip. This gives me a chance to strike and hopefully dislodge the feeder. Without this there would be no indication of a bite and the first I’d know of it would be when I wound in minus a hooklength."

I'm not sure you know what you are talking about or if you simply use this rig because someone showed it to you.

Although fairly commonplace for several years prior, this rig was first published in print in Bob Roberts's book 'The complete book of legering in the early 90's.
Now while I don't see eye to eye with Bob on many issues I have never argued with his knowledge as an angler and when the bloke who wrote the book says,

"Please, whatever you do, don’t use the loop rig suggested above. I realise the UK’s angling press continue to operate double standards by promoting ‘safe’ carp rigs and then suggesting feeder anglers use loop rigs that are very likely to ‘tether’ a fish should your line be broken above the feeder."

then I think we should probably listen.

The full article and chapter 5 of the book can be read here.
The Complete Book Of Legering (Revised) - Chapter Five | Bob Roberts - Fishing information for the complete angler

I also noticed in your defence of this rig you have stated,

"Anything is possible but I have confidence in my set ups. I know I won't win this argument but if the rig I favour in powerful conditions let me (and the fish) down in the way you describe I wouldn't use it. I can't remember losing a feeder last season let alone a complete rig."

If this is true can you explain this paragraph in your original article?

"I also carry a lot of cage and open end feeders of all shapes and sizes. It is important to carry plenty of spares as some pegs are very snaggy. Over the course of a session I get to know where the snags are and am usually able to navigate my way around them but it sometimes takes a few lost feeders to do this.

 

[dave roberts]

There you go chaps. I'll give you this one for free.

A 'safer' loop rig that I devised some years ago. This picture has been in my FM gallery for all to see for years.

The loop is created using a sliding rig rig, which acts as the stop for the feeder. If there is a main line break then the line can pull through the rig ring and release the feeder.

The rig ring can be replaced by a loop to provide and even simpler arrangement.

I like that Mr C C. Graet peice of innovation and thank you for sharing it with us.

I'm not sure it would be right for the conditions I use my loop rig in as I like a real tight loop and I fear debris which gathers on the line and then slides down the line on the retrieve always ending up resting on the top knot, will push the sliding top knot down towards the next knot creating a limp loop which would need adjustment and possible untangling after every cast. Definately safer for anyone not confident enough to try the fixed loop though.

That said these are my initial thoughts and are based purely on speculation. I would not be true to what I have said previous if I did not give it a try at the next opportunity. Which I will do and let you know how it goes. Don't expect an a response until june though!

---------- Post added at 04:27 ---------- Previous post was at 04:13 ----------

Dave,

In your original article you say,

"In reality the rig is a bolt rig but the 3 inch loop is vital because if the feeder does become trapped in a snag and doesn’t move when the fish swims away, I still get some indication on the rod tip. This gives me a chance to strike and hopefully dislodge the feeder. Without this there would be no indication of a bite and the first I’d know of it would be when I wound in minus a hooklength."

I'm not sure you know what you are talking about or if you simply use this rig because someone showed it to you.

Although fairly commonplace for several years prior, this rig was first published in print in Bob Roberts's book 'The complete book of legering in the early 90's.
Now while I don't see eye to eye with Bob on many issues I have never argued with his knowledge as an angler and when the bloke who wrote the book says,

"Please, whatever you do, don’t use the loop rig suggested above. I realise the UK’s angling press continue to operate double standards by promoting ‘safe’ carp rigs and then suggesting feeder anglers use loop rigs that are very likely to ‘tether’ a fish should your line be broken above the feeder."

then I think we should probably listen.

The full article and chapter 5 of the book can be read here.
The Complete Book Of Legering (Revised) - Chapter Five | Bob Roberts - Fishing information for the complete angler

I also noticed in your defence of this rig you have stated,

"Anything is possible but I have confidence in my set ups. I know I won't win this argument but if the rig I favour in powerful conditions let me (and the fish) down in the way you describe I wouldn't use it. I can't remember losing a feeder last season let alone a complete rig."

If this is true can you explain this paragraph in your original article?

"I also carry a lot of cage and open end feeders of all shapes and sizes. It is important to carry plenty of spares as some pegs are very snaggy. Over the course of a session I get to know where the snags are and am usually able to navigate my way around them but it sometimes takes a few lost feeders to do this.

Again You are comparing my views to someone elses. It is my views you have attacked so stop quoting everyone else. It's not relevant

At what point did I say I invented the the rig? Of course someone showed me the rig.

There's a reason why people listen to the likes of Bob Roberts are so widely listenened to. The man is a legend and a bloody nice bloke. Bob is someone who also sees and writes about the threats to our fish stocks I wrote about earlier. I could watch and learn from the man all day long but that doesn't turn me into a sheep that only does things in the exact way they are written.

 

[Lord Paul of Sheffield]

Jeez am I invisible ?

---------- Post added at 23:09 ---------- Previous post was at 23:08 ----------



Helooooo !

---------- Post added at 23:18 ---------- Previous post was at 23:09 ----------



Jeez what do you need to join in a conversation on fm ? A f....ing magic watch and a degree in f....ing barbel watching ?

Or do you have to have been to south africa about a gazillion times ?

No you have to be in some f.....ing inner magic circle that just constantly makes jokes about womens lady parts , like you guys have ever seen anything remotely female

I tell you what you can all go and f... Yourselves you clicky clicky *******s


Thumbs up ! ( your mums bum )

well I've just read the entrire theard and this is the best post - made me smile

 

[Titus]

You still don't get it do you? You have put back into print a dinosaur of a rig which is pretty well universally accepted as a tether rig and are still willing to defend it despite being shown evidence from one of the original authors, who's views you claim to respect, that it is, in his opinion, no longer an acceptable rig.
It takes a big man to admit when he is wrong. With his plea to his readers not to use the rig he was previously advocating Bob has shown he is the big man, the question remains are you?
Somehow I think I can anticipate your answer,

 

[dave roberts]

But once again you are arguing someone elses views. You are not speaking from experience.

I'm sorry but the minute you mentioned Bobbins between eyes I stopped taking you seriously.

There you go....I was wrong to take you seriously! LOL

 

[Titus]

I really didn't want to go into this but as you seem to be hung up (pun intentional) on bobbins let me explain why they work.

When you cast out into running water the water will exert a pull on your mainline proportional to the current, this pull is measurable and can be balanced by the weight of a bobbin, quiver tip or if you are old enough to remember them a weighted swing tip.

On a river with a slow current like the lower Severn in summer the weight required to match the flow may only be a few grams whereas on a flooded river Trent it will run to several ounces, however the effect remains the same, as soon as a fish disturbs the bait the critically balanced feeder will move and you will see an indication on the bobbin.
Using an adjustable front rest helps when initially setting the system up as you can vary the pressure on the mainline by raising or lowering the rod top, much as you would when upstream ledgering.

Having said that when feeder fishing on a prolific river as you have described I would not bother with any such niceties. Feeder fishing done properly is a busy method and I would want to recast every couple of minutes. Therefore I find it preferable to stand and feel for bites while holding the rod and resting the front on one rest.

To suggest I have no experience of this rig shows that you actually have not bothered to read my reply's as I clearly stated I used it extensively in the late 80's early 90's on the river Severn, regularly catching 20 plus barbel in a session on bronze maggot or hemp and caster before realising that as well as being a tether rig it was also not the best rig for the job and replacing it with the simple running ledger rig I still use today.

 

[dave roberts]

Having said that when feeder fishing on a prolific river as you have described I would not bother with any such niceties. Feeder fishing done properly is a busy method and I would want to recast every couple of minutes. Therefore I find it preferable to stand and feel for bites while holding the rod and resting the front on one rest.

So we fish in exactly the same way just use a different rig? No need to go into Bobbins as the article is not based around the conditions in which you use it.

However, the description you give of the Bobbins sounds good and I like the thinking behind it. It's right that you should share it with other forum users.

I never really stopped taking you seriously. Was just joshin.

 

[richiekelly]

What has the tail rubber got to do with it?

If the mainline breaks the only force necessary to release the lead is that applied to the swivel to pull out from the clip, followed by the trailing mainline.

The tail rubber is to release the lead if it snags and the fish is still fighting the angler. As soon as the main line breaks, the tail rubber function is obsolete.

Dos anyone actually fish bolt-rigs on this forum?

---------- Post added at 07:50 ---------- Previous post was at 07:45 ----------






Yes i fish bolt rigs and they are safe, if you think that a tail rubber that has been pushed onto the clip so hard that it will not pull off has nothing to do with the safety of the rig i would ask you to think again, i have caught 2 fish in the past with the clip AND the lead still attatched to the fish, one had been GLUED ON, as i said in the wrong hands they are not safe at all. in both of the instances i mention the rubber and the swivel were jammed onto and into the clip making it unsafe an unable to function as it was designed to do.

 

[Simon K]

Yes i fish bolt rigs and they are safe, if you think that a tail rubber that has been pushed onto the clip so hard that it will not pull off has nothing to do with the safety of the rig i would ask you to think again, i have caught 2 fish in the past with the clip AND the lead still attatched to the fish, one had been GLUED ON, as i said in the wrong hands they are not safe at all. in both of the instances i mention the rubber and the swivel were jammed onto and into the clip making it unsafe an unable to function as it was designed to do.

Blanker, if someone is stupid enough to use the wrong size swivel (e.g. too big) over that recommended for the safety clip or if they are similarly stupid enough to glue the components together, that is well outside of the intended use of the products.
And in no way detracts from my point.

If someone deliberately drove a car at a tree and crashed, I wouldn't want all cars banned on the basis that they're not safe.

Blame the individual, not the product. There are always fools in all walks of life, some unwitting, some not.
Just because some are, you can't generalise and damn something out of hand.

 

[cg74]

What has the tail rubber got to do with it?

If the mainline breaks the only force necessary to release the lead is that applied to the swivel to pull out from the clip, followed by the trailing mainline.

The tail rubber is to release the lead if it snags and the fish is still fighting the angler. As soon as the main line breaks, the tail rubber function is obsolete.

Dos anyone actually fish bolt-rigs on this forum?

Yes thanks, which variant of a bolt-rig do want me to explain too you (in my words; no googling): Fixed lead (purest form of bolt rigging), semi-fixed lead and, yes, a fully running rig....

 

[richiekelly]

Blanker, if someone is stupid enough to use the wrong size swivel (e.g. too big) over that recommended for the safety clip or if they are similarly stupid enough to glue the components together, that is well outside of the intended use of the products.
And in no way detracts from my point.

If someone deliberately drove a car at a tree and crashed, I wouldn't want all cars banned on the basis that they're not safe.

Blame the individual, not the product. There are always fools in all walks of life, some unwitting, some not.
Just because some are, you can't generalise and damn something out of hand.

thats why i said in both of my previous posts " in the wrong hands " there is also a so called safety clip that i cannot remember the name of that has a small piece of plastic that pushes through a hole in the clip to trap the swivel, another unsafe rig as the swivel cannot pull free.

 

[Fred Bonney]

You're on an old hobby horse of mine blanker...we must not assume that all anglers know what they are doing.
It's too easy in the case of the so called safety clip,to use it incorrectly!!!

 

[sam vimes]

we must not assume that all anglers know what they are doing.
It's too easy in the case of the so called safety clip,to use it incorrectly!!!

How far should we go? How prescriptive should angling get? Codes, guidelines or rules for every last aspect of angling? "You must have a fish cradle, filled with water, big enough for Geoff Capes to lie in". If the states goes down this same road, people accuse it of being nanny. There seems to be a fish welfare competition going on. People desperate to prove that they care more. Naturally, the manufacturers of fish "care" products are only too happy to oblige, and escalate.

There's going to come a point when we paint ourselves so far into a fish welfare corner that we aren't going to be allowed to use hooks.

 

[the wise one]

Why would you want to use a hook, when its all about the bite

 

[Fred Bonney]

On the assumption most anglers can read, manufacturers can put on the packet, this is the only way you should use this........

No need for it on hooks though!

 

[Mr Cholmondeley-Corker (PaSC)]

There seems to be a fish welfare competition going on. People desperate to prove that they care more.

The winner will be the angler that cares so much that he gives up angling altogether and becomes a fish enthusiast (a fish watcher) and spends his time working hard to improve the quality of our rivers and water ways to ensure future fish stocks are kept healthy.

 

[sam vimes]

No need for it on hooks though!

Sorry Fred,
take this whole fish care bandwagon to its ultimate conclusion and that's where it ends up. Don't feed them unnatural food stuffs with dirty great hooks in them.

When anglers turn on other anglers and berate rather than inform or discuss, we are already on that road. People desperate to prove that they care more than the next guy. Evangelists that always have to go one better, then berate others into following.

Too much "thou shalt not", "thou shalt" and "you don't want to do it like that" stuff for my liking. It's not as if most of it is even remotely polite.

 

[Paul Boote]

Very much so, Sam. I well remember the occasions on another site that I drew to the attention of various predator-controller freaks and fish-care aficianados the irony and precarious nature of their self-righteous stance on such fish chewers and abusers, asking them to think about the baits that they use and the tons of small, oily, unglamorous "industrial fish" that go into them and how birds such as, say, cormorants, finding themselves with nowt to eat, look elsewhere for a meal. People in glass houses etc......

 

[bennygesserit]

You're on an old hobby horse of mine blanker...we must not assume that all anglers know what they are doing.
It's too easy in the case of the so called safety clip,to use it incorrectly!!!

Ok sobered up now and ready to join in again with a little more intelligence.

I thinkn you are right Fred as an angler who only started feeder fishing last year i watched numerous videos on how to make a rig safe.

Firstly I was only vaguely aware that tethering a fish was something to be considered , I started fishing in the sixties when fixed ledgering was the norm , as were barbed hooks for small fish.

There are also some subtleties associated with the clip methods , ie not jamming the clip in so hard it ceases to function safely and as you say these are not mentioned on the packaging. When people become proficient in a technical issue , and some of these rigs are , they tend to talk in a shorthand assuming that everyone knows what they mean, they don't.

I have caught two or three fish with hooks and the remnants of broken line attached presumably if these rigs hadn't been safe the fish would have died.

To be honest it was a korda video that taught me that I should make the clip easy to pull apart , of course now I know its very obvious but previously in amongst learning how to tie the knots and all the other stuff you have to learn it simply hadn't occurred to me , and I am someone who is trying to learn there are a lot of casual anglers who don't care as long as they catch.

 

[Fred Bonney]

There you go bennygesserit, simple isn't it?

The problem is that the mearest hint of a suggestion on a forum, gets the usual nit pickers on a evangelistic rant, when all it needs is a little care and attention to be shown by those in the know.
Nothing to do with fish care at all costs, or as a, be all and end all of angling, or telling others what to do.

Just plain common sense explanation to those who may need a little advice.