Do Fish Feel Pain?

[Simon K]

Fish don't always pull away when hooked.
On stillwaters particularly (sometimes slow-moving canal type stretches) fish of different species will often pick up a bolt-rig and just sit there, sometimes for many hours.

I know of cases where fish have picked up a heavy lead bolt-rig and then carried on moving slowly around the area apparently continuing to feed oblivious.

Many years ago I hooked a huge beast from a pit three times in two weeks from the same spot (which I believe was a very large catfish) which, each time, just carried on moving very slowly as though my bent-double rod wasn't there.

After a few minutes my frayed braid hooklink returned. I don't believe the strike or the pressure even registered with it.

 

[geoffmaynard]

Agreed, the term 'pain' or indeed 'pleasure' has no place in the life of 'lower' organisms.

Very true. How many creatures demonstrate pleasure? Only mammals I believe.

 

[tiinker]

Fish don't always pull away when hooked.
On stillwaters particularly (sometimes slow-moving canal type stretches) fish of different species will often pick up a bolt-rig and just sit there, sometimes for many hours.

I know of cases where fish have picked up a heavy lead bolt-rig and then carried on moving slowly around the area apparently continuing to feed oblivious.

Many years ago I hooked a huge beast from a pit three times in two weeks from the same spot (which I believe was a very large catfish) which, each time, just carried on moving very slowly as though my bent-double rod wasn't there.

After a few minutes my frayed braid hooklink returned. I don't believe the strike or the pressure even registered with it.

Could you please explain how you would know how long a fish had been there without moving I have experienced not being able to move salmon once hooked when they have held station in the current. as it were.

 

[Simon K]

Could you please explain how you would know how long a fish had been there without moving I have experienced not being able to move salmon once hooked when they have held station in the current. as it were.

Much of the time I don't think you can say exactly.

Example: You might get a single bleep on your alarm at 1am. You don't reel in because it's likely a liner.
No further indication and you then reel in at 6am to check the bait to find a fish attached.
Now, same scenario, but without any tell-tale alarm indication.
These are both reasonably common occurrences.

I had one of my bigger chub (7lb+) give an indication of one bleep on a stretch of canal while fishing a pop-up on a very short link. If I hadn't been watching the rod-tip which was making the very slightest of nodding movements I might well have ignored it for longer than I did, which was a couple of minutes.
I could easily have dismissed it as a piece of debris on the line.

 

[tiinker]

Much of the time I don't think you can say exactly.

Example: You might get a single bleep on your alarm at 1am. You don't reel in because it's likely a liner.
No further indication and you then reel in at 6am to check the bait to find a fish attached.
Now, same scenario, but without any tell-tale alarm indication.
These are both reasonably common occurrences.

I had one of my bigger chub (7lb+) give an indication of one bleep on a stretch of canal while fishing a pop-up on a very short link. If I hadn't been watching the rod-tip which was making the very slightest of nodding movements I might well have ignored it for longer than I did, which was a couple of minutes.
I could easily have dismissed it as a piece of debris on the line.

My own experiences are not the same as your own I have fished the sort of rigs you talk about for more than thirty years and never had this happen without knowing the fish was there usually a bream and it has been to cold and wet to wind in . I have fished fishers green ect on and off since the mid 60s . But not for the past four years except for the pike in the lakes. I know the chub can give very little indication at times but I have never had one hang itself without me knowing.

 

[chav professor]

Must be plausible a fish 'hanging' itself and not giving an indication. or equally, could possibly be a fish reacting to the bait moving and giving that impression... Its quite a frequent occurrence for a Chub to be lured into taking after the bait has been twitched.

Even simple creatures are capable of demonstrating a degree of simple learning - possibly a chub associates bolting with danger... or indeed, shies off a static bait?

 

[tigger]

After lifting a carpet today I forgot about the grippers... I deffo felt pain, infact my heel is throbbing it's t!ts off right now !

 

[Philip]

If they feel pain why do they pull away when hooked? If you could feel pain when hooked in any part of your body you certainly wouldn’t pull in the opposite direction.
Jerry

Well Jerry I guess its a very subjective question & everyone will have their own view, the way I see it is this …Imagine if someone stabbed you with a hook while you where looking away...your automatic initial reaction would be to try and pull yourself away from the thing hooking you, however you quickly discover it hurts …allot ! …and so you try and release the pressure…and I think that’s the point your making.

...However ! ….

Now imagine that same hook starts dragging you towards an extremely awful event....you find yourself starting to get dragged into lets say deep water or fire or whatever .... the chances are your reaction now will be to start to resist and pull back despite the pain and to try and escape...because basically the pain of the hook is nothing compared to the horrific thing its pulling you towards....the lesser of two evils as it where.

Taking it to a fishes level...it gets hooked....its now being dragged towards the surface...this is really bad...what is it going to do ? ...sit there and let itself be dragged out of the water to what appears to be certain death ? Of course not ..its going to pull back !

For that reason I think its totally understandable that a fish would pull back when hooked as its panicking and trying to escape from whatever is dragging it along by a hook !


Second point...for the people who doubt it and say its not been proved fish feel pain...I say come on ! ...witness how fish can go rigid in your hand, fins erect as you unhook them and start crapping themselves. The hook is stuck in its mouth, sometimes coming right out of the top lip and so on. I don’t need to be a scientist to see that fish is experiencing panic and I am also certain its experiencing pain. I don’t believe the anatomy of a fish is SO different to that of a mammal to mean its somehow evolved to be impervious to pain…it has muscles, nerves, organs & so on ...come on !...of COURSE they feel pain ! Perhaps they have a different pain threshold to us but I am in no doubt whatsoever that fish feel it.

The thing is I think the whole notion that fish dont feel pain is just a delusion by anglers as a way to try and justify what we do. However in my opinion no one in the non angling public will EVER buy the idea that fish dont feel pain when you stick a hook in it ...so I think we should stop saying it as its : 1) Just not true ! and 2) Playing right into the hands of the antis and will be the death of angling.

In my opinion the best way to justify angling is to be up front about it...yes we cause fish distress BUT we as anglers do more for fish and water environments than 99.9% of the non angling public ever will. The bottom line is that there is more happy fish swimming about BECAUSE of anglers and if you ban angling fish will be WORSE off.

---------- Post added at 19:25 ---------- Previous post was at 19:20 ----------

Most anglers take pride in returning their catch and consider their actions thoughtfully - no emotional harm comes to a fish that has been caught and released - and that is the difference and why I have no compunction over my actions.

I have no compunction over my actions either Chav for all the reasons I mention above. The difference is I dont try and justify my actions by pretending to myself that sticking a hook in a fish & dragging it out of the water causes them "no emotional harm" as you put it....sorry but I cant agree with you on that.

 

[Simon K]

Well Jerry I guess its a very subjective question & everyone will have their own view, the way I see it is this …Imagine if someone stabbed you with a hook while you where looking away...your automatic initial reaction would be to try and pull yourself away from the thing hooking you, however you quickly discover it hurts …allot ! …and so you try and release the pressure…and I think that’s the point your making.

...However ! ….

Now imagine that same hook starts dragging you towards an extremely awful event....you find yourself starting to get dragged into lets say deep water or fire or whatever .... the chances are your reaction now will be to start to resist and pull back despite the pain and to try and escape...because basically the pain of the hook is nothing compared to the horrific thing its pulling you towards....the lesser of two evils as it where.

Taking it to a fishes level...it gets hooked....its now being dragged towards the surface...this is really bad...what is it going to do ? ...sit there and let itself be dragged out of the water to what appears to be certain death ? Of course not ..its going to pull back !

For that reason I think its totally understandable that a fish would pull back when hooked as its panicking and trying to escape from whatever is dragging it along by a hook !


Second point...for the people who doubt it and say its not been proved fish feel pain...I say come on ! ...witness how fish can go rigid in your hand, fins erect as you unhook them and start crapping themselves. The hook is stuck in its mouth, sometimes coming right out of the top lip and so on. I don’t need to be a scientist to see that fish is experiencing panic and I am also certain its experiencing pain. I don’t believe the anatomy of a fish is SO different to that of a mammal to mean its somehow evolved to be impervious to pain…it has muscles, nerves, organs & so on ...come on !...of COURSE they feel pain ! Perhaps they have a different pain threshold to us but I am in no doubt whatsoever that fish feel it.

The thing is I think the whole notion that fish dont feel pain is just a delusion by anglers as a way to try and justify what we do. However in my opinion no one in the non angling public will EVER buy the idea that fish dont feel pain when you stick a hook in it ...so I think we should stop saying it as its : 1) Just not true ! and 2) Playing right into the hands of the antis and will be the death of angling.

In my opinion the best way to justify angling is to be up front about it...yes we cause fish distress BUT we as anglers do more for fish and water environments than 99.9% of the non angling public ever will. The bottom line is that there is more happy fish swimming about BECAUSE of anglers and if you ban angling fish will be WORSE off.

---------- Post added at 19:25 ---------- Previous post was at 19:20 ----------



I have no compunction over my actions either Chav for all the reasons I mention above. The difference is I dont try and justify my actions by pretending to myself that sticking a hook in a fish & dragging it out of the water causes them "no emotional harm" as you put it....sorry but I cant agree with you on that.

Philip,
Even within the anthropomorphism which we, as humans, inevitably fall into, "panic" and "pain" are two entirely different things and neither one is dependent on the other.

By your reasoning, all fish would "pull back" from "pain" when they're hooked.
They don't.

I do think that some fish "panic" and pull away from the force that's exerted on them from the rod and line, but I don't equate this automatically with "pain".

Here's something I've never understood from the report a few years ago that alleged that fish do feel pain after being injected with venom and also a placebo.

The fish reacted to the venom, but not the placebo; ergo: they feel pain.

However.............
Surely if fish DO feel pain they would have reacted to the needles piercing their skin and that would have been proof enough.
The fact that they had to be injected with venom in order to elicit a reaction tells me all I need to know. Venom acts internally and will create a completely different set of physiological reactions (depending on it's protein make-up) within an animals body to a mere pinprick, be it from a needle or a hook.

Although they may react to adverse circumstances, I have yet to see any convincing evidence that "fish feel pain".

 

[Jeff Woodhouse]

Of course fish feel pain

There's a temptation in me to say - Prove it!

There's millions would like to know how. Prof Rose, a man who knowledge is far greater than anyone on this forum doesn't think so, or not pain as we experience it. Don't confuse pain with feeling, feeling unusual vibrations, even sound, in the water will startle a fish as will a hook in it's mouth, but neither adds up to the experience of pain. It's a very wide subject and until fish climb out of the water and tell us we can only take our scientists' best guess based on their research.

It's a rhetorical question - what sort of colours does a dog see, normal spectrum, blue based, or infra red? I only ask because my dog won't tell me yet he sees me wherever I am and can always find his dinner.

---------- Post added at 20:18 ---------- Previous post was at 20:16 ----------

How many creatures demonstrate pleasure? Only mammals I believe.

Not my wife, but she sure can demonstrate DISpleasure!

 

[tiinker]

Must be plausible a fish 'hanging' itself and not giving an indication. or equally, could possibly be a fish reacting to the bait moving and giving that impression... Its quite a frequent occurrence for a Chub to be lured into taking after the bait has been twitched.

Even simple creatures are capable of demonstrating a degree of simple learning - possibly a chub associates bolting with danger... or indeed, shies off a static bait?

The whole idea of a bolt rig is that the fish pricks itself on the hook point and reacts by bolting and setting the hook. I think you give to much credit to the fish to be able to avoid this reaction by learning not to bolt.

 

[Philip]

Philip,
Even within the anthropomorphism which we, as humans, inevitably fall into, "panic" and "pain" are two entirely different things and neither one is dependent on the other.

By your reasoning, all fish would "pull back" from "pain" when they're hooked.
They don't.

I do think that some fish "panic" and pull away from the force that's exerted on them from the rod and line, but I don't equate this automatically with "pain".

Maybe I didnt explain it well enough but I didnt even try and link panic with pain..I agree with you Simon that they are two different things. I suspect a fish pulls away from whatever is pulling it out of the water due more to panic.... BUT I also belive they feel pain.

---------- Post added at 20:46 ---------- Previous post was at 20:44 ----------

There's a temptation in me to say - Prove it!


It's a rhetorical question - what sort of colours does a dog see, normal spectrum, blue based, or infra red? I only ask because my dog won't tell me yet he sees me wherever I am and can always find his dinner.

---------- Post added at 20:18 ---------- Previous post was at 20:16 ----------

(

Do you think Dogs feel pain Jeff ? ...have you ever had anyone "prove" that to you before you belived it ?

 

[Simon K]

The whole idea of a bolt rig is that the fish pricks itself on the hook point and reacts by bolting and setting the hook. I think you give to much credit to the fish to be able to avoid this reaction by learning not to bolt.

Bolting doesn't always set the hook. It may be the pressure they feel from the hooklink to the lead that they react to. Not the hookpoint at all?

I've certainly had cases where I've been playing a fish which (I assumed) had shaken the hook and, on reeling in, have found the hookpoint to be masked. The hook never penetrated the skin in the fishes mouth, yet it fought as you'd expect it to.

And if fish can learn (e.g. employ memory) to avoid baits attached to hooks/line, or even materials such as line and leads in their own right, which they certainly can, why not learn not to move off if they get to associate it with danger?
It's nothing to do with pain, it's simply survival instinct kicking in and it can manifest in both opposite reactions.

1. It bolts.
2. It stays immobile.
3. It ignores and moves at its normal pace.

 

[Jeff Woodhouse]

The whole idea of a bolt rig is that the fish pricks itself on the hook point and reacts by bolting and setting the hook.

It doesn't have to feel a pricking sensation. There's a natural tendancy in most animals to grab an item of food and quickly steal it away to somewhere safe where no other competitiors can get at it. You see this in fish a lot when you keep an aquarium or pond, but many animals will do it. It and many of the other traits you all been discussing, fish being pulled up in the water or fighting against a 'painful' hook are all a part of a survival insinct that humans have very much lost because of civilisation. Remove law and order and we would very soon return to the same instincts as animals, it has been proven during recent wars.

Do you think Dogs feel pain Jeff ?

I never implied that they didn't. Re read please, WHAT COLOURS CAN THEY SEE and its RHETORICAL - in other words I do NOT expect an answer.

Repeat after me - DOG = Mammal = developed brain. Fish = undeveloped brain compared to ours, that is.

 

[Fred Bonney]

I've seen enough research to know, fish don't feel pain!

 

[Mr Cholmondeley-Corker (PaSC)]

What about if you hit a fish on the head with a priest?

 

[binka]

What about if you hit a fish on the head with a priest?

Would that be a respectable thing to do with a member of the clergy?

 

[Philip]

I never implied that they didn't. Re read please, WHAT COLOURS CAN THEY SEE and its RHETORICAL - in other words I do NOT expect an answer.

Yes I know ...thanks for the English lesson.

Repeat after me - DOG = Mammal = developed brain. Fish = undeveloped brain compared to ours, that is.

And ? ...whats your point ?

---------- Post added at 21:36 ---------- Previous post was at 21:33 ----------

What about if you hit a fish on the head with a priest?

No, according to some you could beat it several times round the head and it would feel no pain as it does not have the brainpower to realise what pain is and so it would just suddenly realise it was dead.mg:

---------- Post added at 21:42 ---------- Previous post was at 21:36 ----------

I've seen enough research to know, fish don't feel pain!

Care to share it Fred ? ...I really would love to believe...really !

 

[binka]

No, according to some you could beat it several times round the head and it would feel no pain.mg:

Not with a member of the clergy I hope

Actually, on second thoughts...

 

[tiinker]

Bolting doesn't always set the hook. It may be the pressure they feel from the hooklink to the lead that they react to. Not the hookpoint at all?

I've certainly had cases where I've been playing a fish which (I assumed) had shaken the hook and, on reeling in, have found the hookpoint to be masked. The hook never penetrated the skin in the fishes mouth, yet it fought as you'd expect it to.

And if fish can learn (e.g. employ memory) to avoid baits attached to hooks/line, or even materials such as line and leads in their own right, which they certainly can, why not learn not to move off if they get to associate it with danger?
It's nothing to do with pain, it's simply survival instinct kicking in and it can manifest in both opposite reactions.

1. It bolts.
2. It stays immobile.
3. It ignores and moves at its normal pace.

As I have said I think you give fish to much credit yes they avoid baits but I do not accept the rest of it they are only fish .