Do Fish Feel Pain?

Jeff Woodhouse

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Would that be Barrie Richards the Angler ?
No. It is Barrie RICKARDS, the late angler and paleobiologist at Cambridge University - if you can get your head around that title... He passed away a few years ago now.
because unlike you my justification for angling is that as an angler the good I do outweighs the bad.
My justification for angling is that I simply enjoy it and rowlocks to those who don't understand it. AND - I don't have to argue it with people like you, the arguing was done long ago by people much cleverer than me and far far more cleverer that you. Also, I put quite a lot back into angling, which more than justifies a position that you seem to also be claiming so - what have you done for angling?
 

Jeff Woodhouse

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The majority of the Public don't even think about the question in my view.
I'm fairly sure the majority still think of us as a line with a worm on one end and a fool on the other. I have someone to nominate for that post now... ;)

Simon, what is your take on reptiles though and what degree of feeling > pain do they feel? Asking as they're cold blooded also, but are their brains any larger or just a simple as a fish's?
 

Simon K

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Simon, what is your take on reptiles though and what degree of feeling > pain do they feel? Asking as they're cold blooded also, but are their brains any larger or just a simple as a fish's?

That's a complicated question in some ways Jeff.

Snakes are, in general, quite "simple" and don't seem to have much learning behaviour regarding threatening circumstances other than staying still, moving away, or exhibiting their own threats.

They are well known for wrapping around heat bulbs and burning themselves to the third degree. This would show that "pain" doesn't register (as we've been discussing re. fish) in a way that we mammals recognise.

Some lizards have more developed brains and show some "cognisant" behaviour. Monitor lizards, for example.
But again, they can suffer what we would term a "painful" injury and show no outward signs of pain.

I remember one of my Green Tree Monitors jumping and flinging herself around the cage with complete abandon, chasing insects and so on, absolutely normal behaviour, all the while she had a broken rib and an abscess on top of it.

Also, many lizards (and the odd snake) can drop their tails from any point along the length of it, which self-seals to prevent blood loss and infection. Then they re-grow it. Salamanders can re-grow complete limbs.
This would seem to preclude sophisticated pain receptors such as are present in mammals.

I don't believe reptiles/amphibians feel "pain" as we know it, either.
 
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Philip

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No. It is Barrie RICKARDS, the late angler and paleobiologist at Cambridge University - if you can get your head around that title... He passed away a few years ago now.My justification for angling is that I simply enjoy it and rowlocks to those who don't understand it. AND - I don't have to argue it with people like you, the arguing was done long ago by people much cleverer than me and far far more cleverer that you. Also, I put quite a lot back into angling, which more than justifies a position that you seem to also be claiming so - what have you done for angling?

Clean up s**t others leave on a regular basis, treat waterways with repsect, paid license costs..and so on. But as you put it ...I dont have to justify myself to you either do I.

Btw Jeff ...I'll ask nicely...I am attempting to debate firmly but fairly...please stop personally insulting me. I dont want to report you to the moderators. It would be the first time I ever did that in over 12 years on FM.

---------- Post added at 21:32 ---------- Previous post was at 21:22 ----------

The fish doesn't know that "you're trying to pull it out of the water". All it knows is that there is a force being applied to it.

This is another assumption that you cannot prove. My opinion is that the fish knows its being pulled towards something it does not like that constitues danger (the surface) and pulls back as hard as it can.

---------- Post added at 21:34 ---------- Previous post was at 21:32 ----------

You haven't answered my point. The hookpoint penetration (or not) makes no discernible difference to the fishes reaction.

I did anwser your point which was that the fish is being pulled towards something it does not like & constitues danger (the surface) and so will pull back as hard as it can regardless of if it is properly hooked or not.


The whole point here is that you seem to be suggesting because a fish does not pull back EVEN HARDER when its hooked this somehow proves it cant feel pain ?

That just cant be right ! ...Tie a fish by the tail and start to drag it out of the lake....its going to pull back as hard as it can and there is no hook involved there at all.
 
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binka

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I dont want to report you to the moderators. It would be the first time I ever did that in over 12 years on FM.



A bit beside the point but were you formerly a user by a previous name?

Your join date states 2008?
 

Philip

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Yes Binka. My orginal i.d got lost in one of the site shakeups.
 
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binka

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Ah... thanks for that it just confused me for a minute (not a difficult thing to do even on a good day!).
 

Jeff Woodhouse

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Btw Jeff ...I'll ask nicely...I am attempting to debate firmly but fairly...please stop personally insulting me.
Debate? What's debate when people offer you some evidence or reason and you come back and say - "So what?" That's debate??? I'm pretty sure any moderators looking in on your posts are having a good chuckle, but by all means go ahead and report me.

To put it quite kindly to you, you are mixing up survival instinct more prevalent in animals than us and with human emotion that animals just simply do not possess. Now the only way you will learn any more is to read up on the human brain and a fish's brain and also study a bit of psychology, not a lot, just enough and your question 'Do fish feel pain' will be answered. Don't rely on a belief.


I don't believe reptiles/amphibians feel "pain" as we know it, either.
Just about what I thought also. I've heard of rattlers being de-rattled and suffering no ill effects and continuing to shake their tail as if the rattle was still there. Only big one (other than tank kept pythons) I've come across in the wild was a copperhead (?) in Virginia sat in the middle of a narrow path and he/she wasn't moving, so we did. Reported it to the ranger and all he said was "Ah, they'll getcha..." :(
 

Philip

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I'm pretty sure any moderators looking in on your posts are having a good chuckle, but by all means go ahead and report me.

To put it quite kindly to you, .....

Is that your way of trying not to appear pompous or elitist ? ...it failed...

---------- Post added at 22:32 ---------- Previous post was at 22:30 ----------

Now the only way you will learn any more is to read up on the human brain and a fish's brain and also study a bit of psychology, not a lot, just enough and your question 'Do fish feel pain' will be answered. Don't rely on a belief.

Will it indeed. Well thats interesting. So Mr Woodhouse kindly save me lots of time and cut and paste right here on the forum for everyone to see this information that will answer my question and prove fish do not feel pain.

Go on..kindly go and fetch it ..and post it right here for us all to see.
 

Simon K

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Clean up s**t others leave on a regular basis, treat waterways with repsect, paid license costs..and so on. But as you put it ...I dont have to justify myself to you either do I.

Btw Jeff ...I'll ask nicely...I am attempting to debate firmly but fairly...please stop personally insulting me. I dont want to report you to the moderators. It would be the first time I ever did that in over 12 years on FM.

---------- Post added at 21:32 ---------- Previous post was at 21:22 ----------



This is another assumption that you cannot prove. My opinion is that the fish knows its being pulled towards something it does not like that constitues danger (the surface) and pulls back as hard as it can.

---------- Post added at 21:34 ---------- Previous post was at 21:32 ----------



I did anwser your point which was that the fish is being pulled towards something it does not like & constitues danger (the surface) and so will pull back as hard as it can regardless of if it is properly hooked or not.


The whole point here is that you seem to be suggesting because a fish does not pull back EVEN HARDER when its hooked this somehow proves it cant feel pain ?

That just cant be right ! ...Tie a fish by the tail and start to drag it out of the lake....its going to pull back as hard as it can and there is no hook involved there at all.

You're completely wrong. The fish pulls back against the direction of the force. Hence when you want a fish to move away from a snag (say) you pull it in that direction. bring the rod-tip low to bring them to the surface, raise the rod-tip and they bore deeper.

Ergo, it has nothing to do with the hook. And it isn't recognising the surface as danger. The force itself and the direction it's employed is what it reacts to.

I thought you were an angler? :eek:
 

Jeff Woodhouse

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Is that your way of trying not to appear pompous or elitist ? ...it failed...
No you *****, it was a straight answer to put you straight. Obviously I should have listened to a post in another thread the other week -
Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference!
Oh and Peter is one of the moderators you should now contact.
 

Philip

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No you *****, it was a straight answer to put you straight. Obviously I should have listened to a post in another thread the other week -

Oh and Peter is one of the moderators you should now contact.

Well thats strange. That does not appear to be the conclusive information answering my question about fish feeling pain is it. You appear to have completely avoided the question. Or perhaps you forgot ?

---------- Post added at 22:51 ---------- Previous post was at 22:50 ----------

Dont worry..here, let me remind you ....

Now the only way you will learn any more is to read up on the human brain and a fish's brain and also study a bit of psychology, not a lot, just enough and your question 'Do fish feel pain' will be answered. Don't rely on a belief.

Kindly save me lots of time and cut and paste right here on the forum for everyone to see this information that will answer my question and prove fish do not feel pain.

Go on..kindly go and fetch it ..and post it right here for us all to see.
 

chav professor

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On a more positive note, Jeremy Wade has made fishing 'mainstream' on ITV which is a good barometer of public opinion.... Fair enough, the Linda Macartney food manufacturer does not advertise during the schedule - but it does attract massive viewing figures and mainstream advertising revenue.

I got to meet Jeremy Wade where he described the idea behind river monsters - its basically a murder mystery; a who dunnit! An horrific incident, list of suspects, investigation, apprehension of the culprit and then we find out its not as bad as it first seems. An important aspect of the show is Jeremy's enthusiasm for conservation and the returning of his catch - its done in a very respectful way.

Jeremy Wade may not be everyone's cup of tea, but he is a great ambassador for the fishing values that we enjoy in coarse fishing - namely catch and release. The general public accept seeing a fish being caught and released for entertainment.

My wife is a vegetarian (how we get on so well is a mystery to many - specially when my game larder has pheasants or occasionally a hare hanging is beyond me) - we watch it as a family.

Haven't seen the new 'Crabtree' series - but if conservation, fish welfare and respect for our quarry are important values - can't see John Bailey putting a foot wrong - though I doubt it will have such wide appeal.

Fishing by the majority is seen as harmless fun - best we get on and enjoy catching, respecting and releasing our catch accepting all our differences... We are all ambassadors when we meet people on the river bank..

IMHO - the fish feeling pain is a flawed side show - which is why I am more than happy to pay my 25 quid to an Angling organization that can represent my views and quash the pseudoscience of the marginalized and irrational animal rights activist where needs be.
 

Philip

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You're completely wrong. The fish pulls back against the direction of the force. Hence when you want a fish to move away from a snag (say) you pull it in that direction. bring the rod-tip low to bring them to the surface, raise the rod-tip and they bore deeper.

Ergo, it has nothing to do with the hook. And it isn't recognising the surface as danger. The force itself and the direction it's employed is what it reacts to.

I thought you were an angler? :eek:

If the fish is solely pulling back against a force and does not recognize the surface/air/bank etc its being pulled towards as danger ..how do you explain those last second lunges when the fish sees the angler or the net ?

If the fish is simply pulling back against a force and does not recognize anything else as being a threat why would it do that ?
 

tiinker

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There is nothing in the article that proves anything either way Fred. The RSPCA made a case that fish do feel pain …again nothing proved beyond doubt. The bottom line is the jury is still out so we could argue the toss forever.

Now lets put the science to one side. The bottom line is this :

Hold a fish in front of a member of the non angling public and stab a hook into it and say “don’t worry, it does not feel any pain ” and your dead. Angling will be DEAD.

Even if I am wrong & they prove they dont feel pain (which is BS) the bad news for you is that the public will NEVER buy it.

You guys are shooting yourselves in the foot. Carry on this route with the backing of people like Bruno Broughton and angling can kiss its future goodbye.
If I were you I would do Angling a favour and get out of it.
 

chav professor

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Sorry, don't want to sound like I am getting at anyone - but I am utterly bemused!

An independent, peer reviewed scientific paper is published outlining why fish CAN'T feel a sensation that humans recognize as pain in the same way is being rubbished out of hand.

An angler who believes that fish feel emotional pain and suffering is happy to engage in the sport and happily partake in the the torment of a wild animal for fun.

The argument is lost anyway, because the general public is gullible or naive enough to accept the views of extremists - despite their best efforts thus far being negligible and ill informed.

Basic evolutionary survival instincts are read as evidence that best fits the mindset of the angler - or viewed through the eyes of people who don't fish - not crediting the masses with common sense.

The only argument supporting the continuation of fishing is based on the benefit outweighing the moral wrong - i.e. Anglers protect the environment so can justify the pain they dish out in pursuit of a leisure activity...

Now how do you do that man beating a dead horse thingy..... it feels very appropriate - even more so now:eek:mg:
 

Simon K

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If the fish is solely pulling back against a force and does not recognize the surface/air/bank etc its being pulled towards as danger ..how do you explain those last second lunges when the fish sees the angler or the net ?

If the fish is simply pulling back against a force and does not recognize anything else as being a threat why would it do that ?


You answered your own question in the first para.

Think about the angle the force is being applied at, in the second.
And remember, at that stage, it's nearing exhaustion and, like any animal, will make a last bid for "freedom".
 

Philip

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The only argument supporting the continuation of fishing is based on the benefit outweighing the moral wrong - i.e. Anglers protect the environment so can justify the pain they dish out in pursuit of a leisure activity...

EXACTLY ...one person seems to get it.


Trying to justify what we do by attempting to show we dont cause fish “pain”..(or “distress” or “harm” or whatever word you want to pick) ...is self defeating because the non angling public will never ever buy it. Instead I say we should be front about it …

Yes we do cause fish harm BUT anglers also do more for fish welfare and waterways than 99.9% of the non angling public ever will. Bottom line : without anglers fish would be WORSE off.
 
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