Re: Martin Gay's Historic Carp Captures - THIS is 'Overwhelming Evidence'...
Paul Selman said - not for the first time -
"So when Martin Gay's family said he fished and caught the big commons near the warm water outflow at Lennox it could be anywhere from there to Kingston Town where his relatives lived. It was also in the heat of summer, so the water would have been warm along the shore for miles. Only Martin or Yvonne would know! "
This is a classic Selmanism; this time attributing words to Martin's family which they have never uttered. I feel certain the family has NO IDEA this is being discussed on FM. It is JamesN and JamesN ONLY who tells us that Nate, the nephew, said his uncle came home 'white and visibly shaking' but is unable or unwilling to report the upshot to this: that his uncle came home
later during the fortnight's stay with jubilant news of carp fishing success. Can JamesN throw some light on this? You can't have one without the other.
This is a crucial point which should be recognised by all those with a genuine interest in all of this.
Anyway..the Editor's New Year resolution is to rest on the excellent and overwhelming evidence provided by Eddie Benham and the 4 eminent geologists.
I will not return to this subject other than in exceptional circumstances. I leave you with my responses to Paul Selman's FW post...
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Paul Selman wrote: You ignore and disregard any points raised or questions asked that are inconvenient or do not suit your agenda
[I challenge you, Paul, to substantiate this claim. Eddie and I have nothing to gain and nothing to hide. Neither of us has ever ducked a question other than those of a nonsensical nature] You are not debating or discussing this subject
[Between us we have written 5 major articles and have patiently addressed a great many questions] What you are trying to do is gag, bully and cajole everybody into accepting YOUR version of events
[Show us some evidence of this. If you mean we’re able to counter questions and objections with plausible and convincing truths then…yes! Would your customary, childish emoticon insults constitute bullying, by the way?]
I would add that you have tried to demonize me, Robin Monday and James Nowell in Toronto whom you keep
[once] describing as my friend when we have never met or spoken
[I have merely exposed your wealth of contradictions, foolhardy claims, thoughtless assumptions and brashness – and that’s all. A long, long list can be compiled at the drop of a hat if you’d like a record of them. Eddie and I have suggested on more than one occasion that Robin was either mistaken or used as a patsy – we haven’t ‘demonized’ him – we rather sympathize with him if anything. I have already acknowledged the friendship thing, Paul, but being ‘friends’ on Facebook and sending cheery greetings to him do suggest a degree of chumminess don’t they?]
You keep saying the Carp Society had some sort of agenda against Martin Gay and hated him etc
[Nobody has suggested this; only that the Carp Society – and you in particular – were sufficiently frustrated by Martin’s secrecy to hang him out to dry…to ‘demonize’ him] This is also nonsense: he had friends on the Steering Committee who discussed the case and the picture of Martin with his big Canadian
[British] fish was proudly displayed on the official Carp Society Photographic Board at several conferences which can be seen here:
Robin Monday never came to the Carp Society: the Canadian hoax had already been exposed in Carpworld by Tim Paisley
[Are you referring to the Tim Paisley who didn’t publish Martin Gay’s letter of explanation in Carp World – a copy of which is held by Eddie Benham? And are you referring to the ‘hoax’ concerning mountainous backdrops and big carp which were caught “one million per cent” in British Columbia where there is “fantastic carp fishing” or, possibly, the ‘hoax’ concerning big carp caught “one million per cent” at Lennox Power Station, Ontario, and NOT British Columbia where, you decided after 25 years, the carp fishing wasn’t so good after all? Would this be the ‘hoax’ for which there was “overwhelming evidence”?]
You simply make things up to suit your purpose
[Name one example} including exaggerating the number who allegedly
[actually] saw the original pictures at your club meeting from 9 to 12 in the course of your own narrative
[A fairly inconsequential point but, for the record, there were 9 committee members who saw the pics at the meeting. At another time I saw them, plus Chris Yates, Robin Monday, Martin’s closest friend and one non-angler – that’s 13 in all] You say it was me that said Martin went on holiday to British Columbia, when it was Martin himself who kept saying this in print, when in fact he was fishing near Lennox Power Station, Kingston, Ontario near the home of his family all the time. Isn't that dishonest of him?
[No, it’s not. Martin did holiday in British Columbia; in Banff in fact. Furthermore, my close friend of 37 years never ONCE mentioned fishing in Lake Ontario. Think about that. It is true that he and his wife stayed in Ontario, for two and a half weeks under the same roof. If Martin’s nephew recalls his uncle returning home ‘white and visibly shaking’ at seeing some big carp he’d also remember his uncle returning home some time later during his stay ‘elated at catching so many huge carp’. But he doesn’t! Why is James unable or reluctant to report such an occasion? Is Yvonne Gay’s family – including Nate – aware of this debacle? Think about it…]
The photo I used on here for illustrative purposes of Lake Ontario, Kingston, near to where Martin fished was the only one I could find which was not copyrighted. It came off the official Kingston Town tourist site
[Even more amazing then that you were able to pinpoint the swim he fished and the spot where he parked his car. You even told the world how Martin dashed back to his vehicle for a wash and brush-up for the photographs, Paul. And you didn’t use the photo just for ‘illustrative purposes’: you told us of Martin’s ablutions and that it was Lennox Power Station in a wholly factual manner – but it was actually Kingston Hospital. You just don’t think things through, Paul: amazing for a man in the legal profession] In the photo of the '48' which Martin claims was really a '50', which was cropped by Colin Dyson, the main foliage is a species of Solidago canadensis (Canadian Golden Rod) which is not found in the UK
[Solidago Canadensis is found all over the world, Paul, including the UK. Millions have it in their front gardens and it is currently giving China a problem like the one we have with Himalayan Balsam. This is a readily Googlable fact, Paul ]
I have asked why none of you who claim
[actually did] to have seen the photos came forward in 1989 in support of Martin Gay? No answer is provided. Another thing made up to suit your purpose?
[Apologies. Both Eddie and I had letters published in Carp World 1989 contesting the Carp Society’s decree. I have taken up the cudgels repeatedly since that date. And by your own words, we didn’t reply, so how can anything be made up? Again, you just don’t think things through do you?]
Eddie says he was taken into Wilton's confidence and used his bait. Well, can I humbly ask Eddie to contact Fred and ask him from which country Martin caught his fish? He will be told they were caught from Canada
[Ok, I’ll ask him to. But you said the same thing about Jim Gibbinson. You told us that Jim would back up the Canada story “one million per cent” – but he didn’t, did he? All he said was “Ask Robin Monday – he’ll tell you” And anyway, how would Fred know?]
Our purpose at the time was to protect the integrity of the British Record Carp List, particularly as we controlled the historic Redmire Pool at the time. We were not interested in Martin's other fish
[So the 3 thirties and the half ton of twenties and doubles came from another lake? Be serious, Paul…] just the so-called 48 [Fair enough, Paul…it was 50lbs+] when he was claiming THE DAY I BROKE **** WALKER'S RECORD
[He didn’t claim this. It’s been said time and again that this was Coarse Angler editor, Colin Dyson’s headline. Martin hated it]
I am not interested in fanciful nonsense on FM
[You have been comprehensively banged to rights, Mr. Selman. You have tripped yourself up repeatedly along the way with foolish theories, bogus photographs, “one million per cent” assurances of two separate stories, a glaring botanical inaccuracy, wrongful allegations (see above and elsewhere) and making ridiculous claims about mountains in Martin’s photos – which you never, ever saw. You have been proved wrong about the dates Martin was in Canada and you have been shown the minutes of the Moor Hall Committee meeting in Essex that prove he was in England at the time of his 34.4lb common capture.
In stark contrast, everything Eddie and I have presented has been grounded in personal knowledge (we don’t lie) corroborated facts from Eddie’s comprehensive archive material and the entire Moor Hall committee (1989 - ) plus highly detailed accounts – including spot-on weather conditions – of the many successful trips Martin made to the same lake over a 3 month period in 1990. He COULDN’T have been in Canada.
So, Martin Gay, self-confessed ‘plonker of a carp angler’, wearing shorts and trainers and with the temerity to ‘take his wife along’ made the catch of a lifetime using a 12ft carp rod, 10lb line and a Mitchell 300. Well played, Martin!
I am interested in only simple truths like this one:
Robin Monday wrote in May 2015
[25 years up the line and under pressure from Eddie Benham and myself who revealed just how many people had seen the untouched pic’s before Robin Monday did] "I was fishing for barbel every weekend with Martin
[‘Every weekend’? Martin went to Canada before the second weekend of the season] until he went to Canada on holiday and came back showing me all the photo's of the carp he caught whilst away, so let's stop all this doubt once and for all.
[Inaccurate. The photos Martin showed Robin had been processed by Boots the Chemist. There would have been a processing delay of a few days (normally) before which Martin could well have caught the big ‘un in the second half of his third week’s holiday] Martin was a good friend and has now taken the truth
[??? see the verdict of 4 geologists] to the grave with him. RIP
Robin Monday also said, May 2015: “I can't remember exactly what was in each photo but the size of the rocks and the horizon that was so far away that it could never have been in this country”
[There was never any mention of ‘rocks’ and ‘distant horizons’, not for 25 years! The ‘rocks’ only appeared in May 2015 strangely enough - along with the new Lake Ontario story. Robin only ever said that the background “…didn’t appear to be English”]
“Anyway why would I doubt it we were best mates that fished together every week, he goes on holiday and comes back with loads of photo's of large common carp”
[I repeat – he didn’t. His photos were processed at a local Boots the Chemist. He didn’t ‘come back with’ loads of photos] If you have seen one of the 48 common just look for the large lamprey mark on it's belly"
[Lamprey bites are quite distinctive. The pinkish mark on the 50lber – photographed from 6-7 feet? was NOT distinctive and could have been caused by anything. Who hasn’t seen red or pink or orange marks on a carp?]
The icing on the cake? That’ll be the testimonies of four (4) qualified geologists who all agree that the shots of Martin with his superb British common carp were NOT taken on the banks of Lake Ontario.
Happy New Year!! Ed.
